Thursday, August 24, 2006

Death Tourism

This is probably the most scary advertisement I have ever seen. Israeli officials have been able to turn their "struggle for survival" - as they call it - into a tourism business that costs $1,895 per person excluding airfare. "Experience a dynamic and intensive eight day exploration of Israel's struggle for survival and security in the Middle East today," reads the advertisment (click here to see it). Oh, and mission participants - as they are called - are required to make a tax-deductible donation of $500 to $5,000 to Shurat HaDin - Israel Law Center to assist in the funding of the terror victim litigation against the Palestinian terrorist organizations, their leaders and financial patrons. I think it is rather ludicrous to transform such serious situations into a fantasy business that does only one thing: instigate more hate and fear.
One of the testimonials read: "Whether it was observing a terror trial outside Beit El, cruising the Kinneret in the beautiful moonlight, staring down Hizzboulah terrorists across the Lebanese border, or meeting the key policy makers and shapers in Israel, each stop on the odyssey connected me more and more to the tribulations and triumphs of our amazing Israeli brothers and sisters." It feels great that another person now clearly views all of Lebanon as a terrorist organization. Thank you Shurat HaDin for turning the region's crisis into a Disney Middle East where people don't even see that human beings are dying in the thousands, on all sides.

The itenerary includes:
- Briefings by Mossad officials and Shin Bet commanders.
- Briefing by officers in the IDF Intelligence and Operations branches.
- Inside tour of the IAF unit who carries out targeted killings.
- Live exhabition of penetration raids in Arab territory.
- Observe a trial of Hamas terrorists in an IDF military court.
- First hand tours of the Lebanese front-line military positions and the Gaza border check-points.
- Inside tour of the controversial Security Fence and secret intelligence bases.
- Meeting Israel's Arab agents who infiltrate the terrorist groups and provide real-time intelligence.
- Briefing by Israel's war heros who saved the country.
- Meetings with senior Cabinet Ministers and other key policymakers.
- Small airplane tour of the Galilee, Jeep rides in the Golan hights, water activities on Lake Kinneret, a cookout barbecue and a Shabbat enjoying the rich religious and historic wonders of Jerusalem's Old City.


Blogger Doc said...

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen.

Makes me more angry. What crap is this? Profiting over war and people's misery--sounds oddly familiar.

This is not even slightly amusing. I am disgusted.

6:53 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

So doc who cares what you think. It's going to happen and people like me would spend the money and if the Lebs did the same I would go there too.

People are alwasy curious and will go the the scene of any disaster. Like a car accident or plane crash, why are the sidlines always full? So it's human nature. They need money too, They don't have near the money coming in that HZ / Leb does anyway.

7:04 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

You mean the 3 billion + going to Israel (PER YEAR) is not enough?

Sam, please get an education. Please.

7:06 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Thanks for the link MR, I can't make it this year but maybe theya'll have another in the springtime. This would be an experience.

Um 10 Billion would be better! I would rather spend the money there than in any other part of the world. I would cut illegal's medical and schooling to fund more countries that are fighting terror.

7:11 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Doc - it's not just profiting. It is yet another example of the completely outrageous bullying of a group of out of control people bent on hate and destruction. Look at the purpose of the "required donation" - I've quoted it below. All of this while people are in "luxury accomodations" travelling in "luxurious buses" and eating "authentic mideast" meals. they get a bouncy humvee ride in the Golan Heights while some hack who carried a rifle tells them all about "terrorism."

Mrtez - are we about to arrange a tour of Lebanon, perhaps? Maybe it could be on camel back to continue the stereotype? Perhaps you could arrange - ala the Disney experience - for a "terrorist" to be shooting at a fighter bomber 5 miles up in the sky. Perhaps you could demonstrate how effective the "war on terror" is by killing young mothers of prospective terrorists. Or how effective it is to blow up the airport or oil storage.

It is no wonder why the anti-defamation league is so necessary. The propaganda that flows is so completely outrageous it could not otherwise be imagined. It is straight from Rudolf Hoess.

And - as a final and completely unforgivable insult and further demonstration of the complete incompetence of our idiot government, the required "donation" is called a donation so that it is PAID BY THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER. Note the receipt will be given so the "donor" can deduct it from his or her taxes. In addition to all the money we give to that place.

Here: Read why the donation is required:

Mission participants are required to make a tax-deductible donation of
$500 to $5,000 to Shurat HaDin - Israel Law Center to assist in the funding of the terror victim litigation against the Palestinian terrorist organizations, their leaders and financial patrons.

These civil actions are currently being brought in Israel, the United States and Europe on behalf of the victims and families of the victims of the suicide bombings and drive-by shootings and enable them to fight back against those who have killed and injured their loved ones and devastated their lives forever.

These lawsuits are an effective means of bankrupting the perpetrators of these heinous crimes and providing long term financial security for the victims and families, many of whom have been economically crippled with the lose and wounding of breadwinners.

The donations will permit the survivors of the hundreds of killed and injured to seek justice and compensation through the court systems around the world. Shurat Hadin will provide all donors with a tax-deductible receipt for Internal Revenue Service purposes.

7:12 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

And if an education means knowing and only seeing what you do Doc than no thanks. I don't like the taste of sand. I like my head in the sun not buried in the sand.

7:12 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Howard still waiting for your snappy little insluts of me. Besaides cutting and pasting other peoples work it's your only origonal text.

Tic Toc Traitor.....

7:14 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

HCB--this is beyond comprehension. I am so dumbfounded I dont know what to say. I hope most Israelis do not support this whatsoever, and I hope Americans find this as ridiculous and asanine as we do.

Lebanon would never do anything like this--we get tourists anyway (up until 1 month ago) without having to profit over hate, destruction and misery.

PS: The only sand and camels Lebanon has is on the beach and in the zoo.

7:21 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Here is the letter I just sent to my congressman:

Here is the link to an ad for a luxury tour called "The Ultimate Mission" in Israel to see the problems with terrorism and how it is being fought. Although the idea behind the "tour" is simply to promote more fear and hate, I am concerned that the American Taxpayer is paying for it. After the link, I've quoted a part of the ad wherein the required "donation" is specified. The reason for requiring the "donation" (as opposed to increasing the ticket price by the required amount) is made clear: it is TAX DEDUCTIBLE (see the last sentence below)

Is it really tax deductible? If so, what must I do to stop it?

Mission participants are required to make a tax-deductible donation of
$500 to $5,000 to Shurat HaDin - Israel Law Center to assist in the funding of the terror victim litigation against the Palestinian terrorist organizations, their leaders and financial patrons.

These civil actions are currently being brought in Israel, the United States and Europe on behalf of the victims and families of the victims of the suicide bombings and drive-by shootings and enable them to fight back against those who have killed and injured their loved ones and devastated their lives forever.

These lawsuits are an effective means of bankrupting the perpetrators of these heinous crimes and providing long term financial security for the victims and families, many of whom have been economically crippled with the lose and wounding of breadwinners.

The donations will permit the survivors of the hundreds of killed and injured to seek justice and compensation through the court systems around the world. Shurat Hadin will provide all donors with a tax-deductible receipt for Internal Revenue Service purposes.

7:24 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

One other question Howard, do you still have your VC approved copy of your little "Red Book"? I bet you do. Is Stalen your daddy, maybe Lenon is your idol.

7:25 PM  
Blogger Lilu said...

Oh but things like this aren't new - it was a few years back I started hearing West Bank settlers provided tourist tours of key conflict areas, Hebron and the like - it was a form of 'adventure tourism' (many americans jumped at the chance). You gotta keep things in proportion though - this is a small tourist venture by a group of private individuals - this is not even a government office. Immoral people exist anywhere (especially lawyers :) ) and everywhere and it's not about nationality. I'm not sure what credibility their 'mossad' and 'shin bet commanders' really have - might as well turn out to be some mall security guard. Advertising is not always true.
It is unfortunate Shurat HaDin had to go and participate in such a disgusting venture, because providing legal aid for victims of terrorism is legitimate and respectful, and now their tainted with these sleaze fest.

Frankly what sickens me most is that there is are customers for these things... I mean, what are we, animals in a zoo? terrorism safari???

7:25 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Well doc your just too smart. I guess a figure of speach is way to simple for a person of your supreme intelligence.......

Nice letter Howard, so insightful and I bet your congress person is going to react right away and have a meeting to endlessly debate the topic.

7:28 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

I'm very serious, I would go in a second. Why not, nothing will ever change, the hate is too deep and everyone just wants to complain not fix it. Were all just adding to the problem.

I do have to say Howard it's neat your trying.

7:30 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Lilu your insight is helpful but everyone here just sees the evil Jews at it again. Thats why Howard wrote his congress person. I mean there are no companies in America that do this sort of stuff...... Nope our goverment would never allow for profitering.

Oh wait, it's happening in NO everyday. Private business Howard, not touchable by the Gov but it's great were wasting time on it.

7:32 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

Yes-Lilu. This 'adventure tourism' is something i have never heard of. Makes me more despondent of the situation. I am surpised not more Americans know about this. I have a feeling there would be an uproar.

7:34 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

I can tell you Lilu - I have friends who have visited Israel and come back "changed" (their word) Apparently there has always been a "briefing" for American visitors. My friends told me the briefing changed them from being concerned about all the violence to being convinced Israel must do all it can to "elminate" the terrorists. It must be quite a briefing because the people I'm talking about are very nice, very religious - orthodox but not overbearing - and very compassionate.

And that was not a safari. That was some years ago.

7:35 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

And I want to be sure you understand me, Lilu - I agree with you about the customers are sick - ride in luxury buses to where they get off to bounce around in a humvee and then back on for an "authentic mideast" meal in the "five start hotel" in Jerusalem. My upset is that it's tax deductible. Whatever pleasure these people get from it, fine. But it really is cynical to require a "donation" so that it's tax deductible.

7:43 PM  
Blogger kevin said...

I know this is an old subject but for those out there that can't understand why Israeli would want to continue to control what goes in to Lebanon. Read this article and explain to me why Bashar would declare UN troops near Syrian border 'hostile move' if it was not trying to smuggle items into Lebanon

8:05 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

I'll give it a shot, Kevin - you understandably assume the UN troops are friendly and simply want to "keep the peace" and make sure HZ doesn't fire any rockets toward Israel. But - it's supposed to be a "robust" force ready to do more than simply "keep the peace." Add to that the idea (with, perhaps, some paranoia on Iran and Syria's part) that the Lebanon fiasco really is a precursor to going into Syria and Iran. It's not unreasonable to be at least concerned about the bona fides of such a force on the border.

Plus, of course, there's some propaganda value to making the announcement. He can't really do anything about it other than talk - so he talks. We're familiar with that kind of person, aren't we? Bashar talks to hear himself and hope others will as well.

For how long does Israel want to control what goes into Lebanon? Forever? By sea, air or land? Is there an arrangement contemplated whereby this "robust" international force will stay there that long? Or does Israel plan to keep 15,000 or so troops out of the economy and on the military payroll? As is happening with the US in Iraq.

8:18 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

I am with you Doc. I just read this and I am completely disgusted. There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of behavior.

I am thinking that Israel has annointed itself as the perennial victim, entitled to use any means to benefit itself and oppress those they find to be a threat. But it's a far cry from Nazi Germany to Hamas and Hezbollah. And the last I checked, Nazi Germany removed Jews from their land and property. Hamas and Hezbollah are the direct results of Arabs being displaced by people who elect a government that has no interest in peaceful coexistence.

Absolutely disgusting.

8:39 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

Yes-Rick. And as a Lebanese, I do not support HZ's tactics--but I know enough that this would never be allowed. Its one thing to bring attention to the death and destruction with propaganda, its completely another thing to profit from it and spread the hate.

This crosses the line.

8:46 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

Can you imagine the Jewish comparison in Nazi Germany?

Come visit Auschwitz; meet the guards that killed the prisoners...let them demonstrate their killing techniques...sit through policy meetings on The Final Solution; all for only $1,895 plus a $1,000 tax deductible donation to bring back the Nazi Party in Germany.

How can anyone find this acceptable?

8:53 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

That's a bit of a stretch, Rick. I don't like the ad, I'd never take the trip and I think it's awful it is tax deductible. But I don't think your analogy is fair.

9:03 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

Maybe, maybe not. I can't speak for how anyone would react to that, but the thought of a government engaged in profiteering off the oppression of a people is horrifying.

"Let's celebrate hate" seems to be the message here; how far is it down the slippery slope to my analogy?

9:06 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

HCB--it is the same effect for Palestinians living in Gaza. I dont know what their perspectives would be on this, but I dont think they would be pleased one bit.

9:07 PM  
Blogger James Quigley said...

It's not the government profiteering? It is a company profiteering is it not? It's quite pathetic someone would do it, but I wouldn't put it past many people in the states either. There are always stupid gimmicks going on just so someone can make a buck.

9:15 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

Look at who the meetings are with. Government and military officials; tell me that the government is not making money off of this, either officially or unofficially.

9:17 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Agreed, Doc. But I read the whole ad. This is a junket put on by people who want to toot their own horns about what they are doing and why it's so important. Boil it down and it's not a whole lot different than the annual show at your local army post or air force base. Show off the high tech stuff and how it is used in _____ (fill in the blank) to kill the enemy.

This one is particularly tasteless but I can't agree it rises to the level of profiting from misery. It's part of Jewish tradition to whine - there's even a yiddish word for it that I can't remember. That's what this is. It's just hurtful and incorrect to try to make it equivalent to touring death camps.

C'mon, guys - you both are more reasonable than that. You're getting carried away, I think. Did you know there are tours of every major battlefield in the history of the United States? Revolutionary war, Civil War, Spanish American, WWII, Korea and now, even, Vietnam. And at each site (at least in the United States) there are detailed charts and maps. And there's always the warning about vigilance and how somebody is trying to take our freedoms away (other than Bush and Cheney, et al)

It's propaganda - that's all. But it shouldn't be tax deductible.

9:20 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

See--I am not so much concerned that it is tax deductible, than it is degrading to the occupied land and Palestinians residents. It promotes hate and stereotypes. And to the uneducated American fool who goes on these tours, this will just further perpetuate the hate and ideology. Not all Palestinians are terrorists, and not all Lebanese are terrorists.

"Observe a trial of Hamas terrorists in an IDF military court"---now, come on!

Revolutionary war, Civil War, Spanish American, WWII, Korea and Vietnam Wars are all done and over---the Arab-Israeli conflict is still alive. It is beyond bad taste.

Its so ridiculous, I am inclined to think it is a farse.

9:34 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Here's something interesting - google "UN Resolution 194" - that's the resolution containing the "right of return." You won't find the actual resolution right away but you will find some competing web sites for its interpretation. The resolution itself is vague and ambiguous but it's not enforceable against anyone anyway. But - here's a site called There's a discussion and then a FAQ page. One FAQ is who is the author? Answer, there are many authors. Here's the cute FAQ. Note how "lies and propaganda" are not included in the "Palestine Facts" site:

FAQ There is a lot of propaganda. Why should I believe you?

Every fact and assertion on this web site is backed-up by elaborate documentation hyperlinked right into the materials presented or available in the supplemental references. If you question anything, follow the links for more and more in-depth discussion and information. The most authoritative sources were sought and are presented for each topic. Lies and propaganda are excluded.

By the way - there is no "Right of Return" for Palestinians. There evidently was broad feeling that there should be but the resolution adopted clearly is not enforceable in any fashion and it flies directly in the face of giving the place to Israel. It's the kind of mealy mouthed nonsense from which lawsuits and wars spring.

9:37 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

It IS a farce, Doc - that's my point. It is beyond farcical. But it's brought to you by the same people who just bombed Lebanon. By the same people who believed their own nonsense about a couple of days of bombing and the problem is solved.

But - at the risk of REALLY appearing insensitive - what about the videos that are made of suicide bombers before they blow themselves up? Or of the IED attacks so they can be used to recruit young "freedom fighters?" Or of Moqtada al Sadr holding forth in a mosque about infidels and Islam?

I think it's trashy, tasteless and insensitive. But I understand how it comes about. And I don't think there's a whole lot that can be done about it.

9:42 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Sorry - I'm talking too much. Got carried away myself

9:43 PM  
Blogger i care said...

hcb said"My friends told me the briefing changed them from being concerned about all the violence to being convinced Israel must do all it can to "elminate" the terrorists. It must be quite a briefing because the people I'm talking about are very nice, very religious - orthodox but not overbearing - and very compassionate.""
Did your friends happen to go into the Gaza or West Bank or South Lebanon? They might have come to understand why so many despise Isreal for their actions against others. If they are so compassionate you cannot mistaken the incredible hardships Isreal places on others. The Isrealis are very very good at propaganda and rhetoric. Just take a look at this bold campaign they are putting out now! Bold and completely arrogant. Take off the rose colored glasses. I know many religous people who have been to Isreal as well, they come back and totally believe their survival is justified. Like my local baptist churches that have "Pray for Isreal" on the placard. Do they even get what Isreal is doing to their fellow Christians. They do not even know the difference between a Zionist and Jew.

9:45 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

You know what, I care? I'm sitting in Florida. I'm trying to learn what's going on in that part of the world. I don't pretend to know it all and I try to maintain some balance in what I see and then interpret. But there is absolutely nothing in this entire world I can do about any of it other than write to my congressman and others to complain. I've done that.

But you seem to think I and others have something we can do about a lot of your complaints. The computer and internet are limited to communication. I can't launch a missile from mine - I can't even get the president of the United States to join me in a chat.

So lighten up - ok?

9:53 PM  
Blogger James Quigley said...

It's hard to take either side very seriously when you see Israel release their propoganda, and you read and see things about "Pallywood". Sometimes, from the West's point of view, both sides are just grabbing for straws that aren't there.

You can also find the video made on youtube and other places.

10:15 PM  
Blogger i care said...

hcb said "I don't pretend to know it all and I try to maintain some balance in what I see and then interpret."

Lighten up? As you attempt to decipher, interpret, and remain balanced ~ Israel has hijacked American foreign policy and bullied anyone who tries to debate the issue. There is no way to interpret or balance a country signed to human rights to use depleted uranium, targeted assasinations, destroying homes, stealing water and land, illegal break of cease fire Baalbak operation, continued air and navel seige, shooting underage Palestinians with rubber bullets in the head, neck, chest; kidnapping Hamas officials, calling Palestinian families one hour before demolishing home, demolishing homes and centuries old olive trees with armoured bulldozers; killing AMerican Rachel Corrie while she peacefully protested to protect a home from being demolished by armoured bulldozer........... have you seen the pictures of the Lebanese children bodies shredded, bloodied, marked with shrapnel? All this with our tax dollars and green light. And you advise me to lighten up? No, my fellow American I am gathering Human Rights, Amnesty International, American Arms Export control Act, Patrick Leahy Human Rights Law, Depleted Uranium reports, uncensored pictures and I will meet with my representatives who control the use of our tax dollars. Instead of trying to interpret and remain balanced ~ it is time to say no more to this nonsense. And I will copy this recent ad for Isreal, take it with me. No more letters from this American, I will carry the facts with me. It is time for Americans to get out of themselves and their heads and get into the heart.
Go visit:

10:20 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Hcb is a ones sided bind baboon. He comes down on anyone who is on the other side and then says lighten up after stciking a knife your back.

Still a coward huh Howard. See this is why Isael gets so much help from the US. People like you would motivate the Pope to Judisim just to spite you. Heck just listening to most of you is making more aganist the Lebs and Muslims everyday. I wanted to see if you guys could over come hate, nope. You're no better than the rest. You say how knowing and insightful you all are. Nope just closed minded haters and people like you will be the downfall of the Lebs. You promote inaction due to miss guidence. We spend so much time defending something that nothing can get done.

So every keep hating the Jews, it's making their stance clearer. I'm now more one sided like you people are except I am going to do more than type hate and BS. Time to donate more money to the State of Israel and vote for people who will stomp the radicals and their followers/supporters into the dirt.

To bad they can't round up you traitors and use you as the HZ shileds. No one would cry thats for sure. Hell I'd crack a bottle of Dom if Howard and few more were first. Just aim for the little red book.

10:41 PM  
Blogger James Quigley said...

Sam, you sound like an idiot spewing crap like that. You wish for other to feel pain? Hmmm.

10:44 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Oh ya, my contributions are all tax deductible too. Isn’t that classic, the more I give to the Israelis the more I get off my taxes to a point. Thank God for Uncle Sam and our founding fathers. Try to donate to the HZ and see what Uncle Sam does to you. Well you can donate to the Leb’s, they’re mostly supporters of the HZ anyway. Peace won’t work so let the strongest better people survive.

Long live the Jews, well the ones who are not moles like some people here who claim to be Israeli but are probably HZ sympathizers and spies.

10:45 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Why not, no one here is wants peace. They talk about it but keep the hate moving.

10:46 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

James--Sam doesnt exist on this blog. He just like to talk and hear himself talk--his comments make no sense to intelligent people.

10:47 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Anyone calling me names here is okay, traitors and haters mean so little. If I'm an idiot in your minds thats just dandy. I'm main stream USA.

10:47 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Doc, if you are a Leb why don't you go back. We have enough Leb trash here already.

10:48 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

I know a few, cheap theives and liers. Alwasy trying to cheat on taxes and labor. First hand knowledge thanks.

10:49 PM  
Blogger James Quigley said...

I'm fairly pro-Israeli, and you do nothing to help the cause Sam. The attitude you take is the attitude that hurts both sides. Many on here have an anti-Israeli way to speaking just like you speak pro-Israeli, and neither way helps. Keep it calm.

10:49 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

I've givwen up on being nice here. I don't wish harm but it will happen so why fight it or worry about it. Lets start a pool on when the fighting starts again. The winner can take the tour being offered in the blog.

10:50 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

I care--I admire your passion to bring light of the issue to others. And I admire HCB for listening and learning about the other side. Everyone engages in propaganda (all sides). But profiting from it crosses the line.

10:51 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Oh James I did, I'm not being fair anymore. I tried an experiment to see if these people could forgive and they can't. So if some morons in the states or over sea's can't fogive what ever makes us think that the radicals or haters will ever stop fighting? It won't so why dream or try.

10:52 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

I hope it works, I care. I don't know that Israel has "hijacked" our foreign policy since I don't know that we have such a thing. I wish, though, that some people here would be as incensed about what we're doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. We've been doing it now for longer than the second world war. And we have nothing good to show for it. we have killed and maimed thousands of americans and tens of thousands of iraqis. For what? We give Israel enough money and munitions and equipment to bomb Lebanon - for what? So we can spend another couple of billion dollars to rebuild it. We run around the world - from Bosnia to Africa to Panama to Indonesia - spreading "democracy" and all that we accomplish is to create more hate. And so, we now have participated with Israel in this horror.

Write and I'll scream at the moon. It is completely outrageous but it is not one sided. It is because we put some fools into office who are bound and determined to show they are tougher than the fools the other people put into office. And the women and children and old people get caught in the flow while the hotheads recruit hotheads to go yell at each other and then shoot each other.

so - continue the war and continue the yelling and continue to make light of trying to figure it out. The end then is one side or the other no longer exists. Or they just keep on shooting at each other.

Until we get some leaders in place who can think instead of act rashly, we have no hope. So long as the leaders on both sides continue to favor bloodletting over ANY other choice, we're doomed. Look, most readily, at why we got into Iraq and why we're told we can't get out. That is what is wrong in these conflicts - there is lying, cheating, fear and hate mongering by all involved. And they all line up and try to convince everyone else that they are right and the other side is wrong. So far it's working. Because, so far, the blood is still flowing.

10:52 PM  
Blogger btree said...

Here's a link to, let's say, a counterbriefing from the other side of the Benador spectrum, by some folks who don't bribe Nitsana Darshan-Leitner and her shitty little lobby shop for a promise to sit in the same room with former Mossad agents and Shin Bet commanders.

It's about 90 minutes, and it's well worth your time.

10:52 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

I would hardly call the US General John Abizeid trash-- Sam.

10:54 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

How many people have ever taken the tour in Hollywood of the stars and where they met their fates?

Millions have for decades, it reamins a fav of the tourists and they come from all ove rthe world. From OJ's house to where the salin bodies of his wife nad Ron were found. Where is the outrage? thats been around as long as any of us.

10:54 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Shut up Doc, your words are dead to me. Go home!

10:57 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

Just to clarify, I am not comparing the two events, but just imagine if someone tried to profit from the Holocaust in this way. How about 9/11 --- perhaps an amusement park in the 9/11; we'd really enjoy that, right? Imagine how the Palestinian people will feel about this...that's all I'm saying.

On another note, Sam has given up being nice.Wow...that really comes as a shock to me, especially after the oh-so-kind way in which he introduced himself into this forum. Well Sam, that's fine, that means I go back to iggying you (look it up) --- and next time you have a revelation to be nice, don't expect me to fall for it.

10:58 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

Does anybody here know that our General of the United States army is of Lebanese decent--first generation, arabic-speaking? Not that this has anything to do with anything, but there you go.

10:59 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

Doc, he only listens to voices that agree with his...most of those are in his own head. Leave him be and ignore him; he will evaporate.

11:00 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Well no one can be perfect Doc. We all have flaws.

11:01 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

And Rick, you guys have said the same thing for weeks now.....

Still here

11:01 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Like I said, Doc - let it go. Look at the typing - the scum is psychopathic. His personality disorder is that he has no personality - he's a self winding dumbtoy - he babbles and drools and makes no sense even to himself - he remembers only he hates. But he can't tell you why or any facts of any kind.

And that is the kind of person who gets others who don't think or who are powerless to do anything about it into the horrors we've been watching. It is completely insane and it's caused by babbling fools like the one you now are watching. The real problem is when people start listening to it and responding. It encourages the babble and that babble becomes loud enough that it's hard to shut out.

Just ignore the fool.

11:02 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

Did somebody say something?

11:03 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

Yes, Rick, I agree. I think its more of a disgrace to Palestinians AND Israelis and Lebanese who are legitmatly suffering.

11:03 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

Yes, HCB. There is a knat flying around my head and I am trying to shoo it away.

11:04 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Ya the ones that vote, the ones who care when its on TV then it's like, huh? the Lebs, aren't they all gone yet?

So once our elected government cares about you whinny crying people I will listen more. Until then the group I'm looking at is in charge, your group is pointing and talking and crying oh why can't we change this. Becasue not enough of the bleeding heart whinners vote!

11:07 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Howard, your back! I figured you got scared because I figured out you were a VC spie in the war. thats why your buddies died, you set them up. Traitor!

11:08 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Pals and Lebs, who cares if they are. they're asking for it.

11:10 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11:11 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Well good bye all for the night. Better things to do and worry about. the Red Sox's are playing tonight and we have tickets. So why all of you cry tears of pain and suffering I will be havin some dogs and cold beer.

Go BoSoxs!!!!!

11:19 PM  
Blogger i care said...

To hcb~ Thank you! I see your heart not your head trying to balance things :)) Beleive it or not we do have a way to peace and a way to stop this nonsense. I am realistic to beleive it will not happen overnight however we can start in our country. A great book is Deepak Chopra "Peace is the Way" (go to the website). Yes I have spoke against the wars in Afgan and Iraq. I am very frustrated with this whole "war on terror" way of thinking. Maybe peace is an idea whose time has come, Americans are feeling it, many are simply afraid to say it. Look we must start stepping up joining others and letting our feelings dictate where the country is going. When I see this ad for Isreal, I find it despicable. Are you aware of AIPAC? Even Fortune magazine talked about it being one of the most powerful ranked lobbys. That is what I mean by hijacked. It is our country and tax dollars, the time is now to start one by one doing something. Are you aware of the Americans organinzing Palestinian solidarity groups in Florida. Americans as never before want the truth and want to take back our respect and morals. I have not forgotten the Iraq and Afgan wars either.

11:22 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

great post, i care. And i agree...I think the people here want the truth, and they are not buying that the Administration is selling. The poll reported yesterday and today notes that Americans are not equating the war in Iraq with the war on terror. It's about time we cleared the smokescreen of what the White House wants us to believe, and to look at the situation on its merits.

And in my final reference to Sam.... it's embarassing to share love of the Red Sox with him. Maybe he'll go crashing into the Pesky Pole chasing foul balls tonight. One can hope.

11:31 PM  
Blogger James Quigley said...

I don't believe it is just the administration that is lying. Sometimes it feels like people's hatred of the president blinds them of other things. You may hate him, you may hate things he has done, you may even be right on some counts, but that doesn't mean he is out to screw the American public. That seems lost sometimes here. A lot of the real decision makers, be they both liberal and conservatives in Congress and others around the world(yes, you too, Mr. UN) are just plain political tools and sometimes they fail to do what is right. They act like those in the big business world. Everything is always done in a process or in another certain way, and it seems like following that path tends to slow things down, and take us off track sometimes.

12:06 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

James, no matter what his intent is, whether it is out of malice or stupidity, the end result is the same. We in America were sold a story on Iraq. That story proved to be a complete myth. Now we are mired in Iraq and the question must be begged, how are we safer now than before we invaded Iraq? Have we created allies, or enemies? Have we inspired people to look at the US as a societal model, or have we bred another generation of hate and contempt.

Yes, I hate the man, but I also have the integrity to acknowledge when someone else is right and I am wrong. If you recall, when asked Mr. Bush couldn't even recall a time he had been wrong, and that's exactly what's wrong.

1:19 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

Hello James and Rick

I always believed that a person who became the president of the United States must be a fundamentally good person. He may make mistakes and, obviously, he comes to office with an agenda matching that of the people who elected him. I'm old enough to remember Lyndon Johnson - in fact, I served in the Army while he was president. I remember clearly when I got back from Vietnam the nightly news had college students packing the streets singing, "1, 2, 3, 4, we don't want your fuckin' war." We had a draft in those days and I concluded all these turkeys were simply ducking their duty. I was hardcore republican and a hawk. I hated the bearded hippies running around singing their anti-american BS and would dearly loved to have had them in a boxing ring with me.

but - a lot went wrong. A lot changed my feelings about that era but I still believed it was simply a "mistake" made by a man who had been misled. There was a famous picture of the time that showed clearly his agony while he was in the white house and the bodies were piling up around him.

Recently I read the book, Dereliction of Duty. It is well written, excrutiatingly detailed and completely documented. Johnson and Macnamara were liars. Not mistaken, not misled, Liars. they actively concealed, misled and waffled. They didn't know what to do and they didn't want anyone to know they didn't know. They refused to talk to the joint chiefs. Macnamara hired his "whiz kids" who decided it was a "new kind" of war and his generals were outdated and unnecessary.

Bush is a liar. He may be (but I don't think so) well intentioned but he is a liar. To make matters worse, he is stupid. But he doesn't want people to know he's stupid so he does what he's told by people he thinks are smart - like Cheney and Rumsfeld. They didn't like Powell so he fired him or treated him so badly Powell had enough and left. Look how he explains his position on stem cell research. Look how he handled his stonewalling on a cease fire in Lebanon.

Bush has never had an original thought. He is proud to be a "C" student and he panders to his base - without a second thought. He got caught in the Iraq fiasco and did the same thing the Israeli high command is doing now - try to rationalize and redirect attention to "the future" because "what's done is done and we can't waste time on pointing fingers."

I, though, don't hate the man. He got himself elected and reelected with the help of a gang of lying, cheating, thieving people with an agenda. Go to and take a look at what's going on with Katherine Harris now - lying cheating and stealing finally caught up with her. But she was our secretary of state who got the vote fixed for Bush in 2000.

Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld almost singlehandedly have created the world situation with which we now are faced. Had they had the best interests of anyone other than themselves in mind, we would not be in the mess we are now.

1:51 AM  
Blogger Doc said...

I agree with Rick, in that I think we have more enemies today than before 9/11, before Afghanistan, before Iraq, and now before the Israeli-Lebanese conflict. Each new "adventure" adds and builds the cycle of hate directed towards the US and its allies...and I dont think that is fair to the majority of innocent Americans, who are mostly ignorant-yes-but only want peace like the rest of the world. Wars instigated by the US and its allies are not called "defense", but more appropriately, antagonistic behavior--begging for conflict and hate.

1:51 AM  
Blogger Mr Wrath said...

Honestly I would like to take the tour if it is somewhat safe. I would also not mind touring NAZI concentration camps etc....BUT

I would like to see these things for education and understanding about current events and history, NOT dressed up with a camo hat and a big pointing foam finger that says "terrorism rocks" while eating cotton candy. I also don't think I would be in the modd or frame of mind for water slides and a cook-out afterwards.

The AD is ridiculous, but it is true...I would like to see what is going on first-hand if my safety is somewhat taken care of. I would NOT travel there personally right this moment either, but maybe in a year or two. The point is that I would be interested because reading about things doesn't give you the full picture and understanding.

On a side note, people will always use any occassion of death and horror to get rich...the day after 9/11, people here were picking up rubble and trying to sell pieces of the towers online. They were shut down, but it goes to show that some people EVERYWHERE will do anything for cash.

2:01 AM  
Blogger btree said...

C-SPAN now has a link up to the talk I mention above.. at the very least I'd suggest checking out Daniel Levy's segment (starts at 40:15) but I think the whole thing is very much worthwhile, including the Q&A.

OK, carry on..

2:17 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

I Care

Thanks for your kind note. I hope we'll talk more. I've seen the kinds of horror these kinds of "war" can provoke. It makes my heart hurt but it is on both sides because the people getting hurt are not the ones who caused the horror. On both sides, the people being hurt most are following - not leading. They believe because they want to believe and because they are afraid.

The people who take them down that fearful trail are evil - Jew, Muslim, American, African, English - it matters not. They exploit the fear and pain and lack of hope or the fear of losing hope.

But - what to do about it?

2:22 AM  
Blogger Doc said...

"reading about things doesn't give you the full picture and understanding"----no, but neither does taking a tour of death and destruction and getting your head filled with propaganda about terrorism. If you want to understand, read history books, visit the areas and talk to people on both sides.

2:32 AM  
Blogger Mr Wrath said...

Doc, that was my point, I would like to visit for understanding, NOT for "adventure and fun" like this idiot tour offers.

Don't worry about the IDF "brainwashing" me either, I don't believe anything my own government says, so why would I believe another?

I would also like to visit Lebanon, but the post wasn't about a tour there, so I spoke about the Israel tour only.

2:43 AM  
Blogger Chris Baker said...

Shurat HaDin - Israel Law Center - is NOT a qualified US charity, in fact it's in Israel. In order to make a tax-deductible donation in the US, the web-site says send contributions to "PEF Israel Endowment Funds" in New York City. However although PEF "PEF Israel Endowment Funds" is a tax-exempt public charity it's web-site does NOT say you can take tax deductions for contributions:

Public charities that take tax-deductible contributions give their contributions only to qualified "501-C3" organizations. meaning they are qualified by the IRS to take tax-deductible contributions. However "PEF Israel Endowment Funds" is being used to pass US tax-deductible contributions to foreign organizations that aren't registered with the IRS.

This looks to be a tax-avoidance scheme that should be reported to the IRS!

2:43 AM  
Blogger mejnuni said...

Interesting also, is kidnapping of the 2 western journalists by,(get this)"the holy jihad brigade". I,m sorry that sounds made up and it sounds TOO western to me. No one in the Palestinian know,has heard of them and the letter quoting stuff from the Qoran appears like chatter.As though written by someone who would not normally read the Qoran.It would be like me opening the Bible and quotin g biblical stuff. (I don't read the Bible or the Qoran and my gut tells me neither do these kidnappers.) I think this will be an interesting follow up because it just doesnt sit right.
Next, one would expect me to buy that 2 planes could bring down 3, yes three, towers in New York. No No No
somethings up with the 2 western journalists. Its just a gut feeling...
you are over there BEIRUTLIVE, look into it more closely.just a little suspect,call me crazy(smile)

3:50 AM  
Blogger mejnuni said...

you are right BEIRUTLIVE, Its not only a spooky ad, but I would say "that camel don't spit"

3:57 AM  
Blogger mr.qahwa said...

I wonder if they have a "frequent flyer/tourer IDF pionts rewards program" for all those return trips in the future?

Or even better how bout giving away gift packs which include rumble from destroyed homes from Lebanon with a free bottle of Litani water!!

Ah yes! the power and the passion of marketing! "preception is the new reality" my dear friends and its about time we wake up and smell the qahwa! and start to serve it back like no one else can.

5:07 AM  
Blogger M2Timechange said...

Wake up, America! Israel is no friend of yours
While Us citizens benefit from the arab world, they don't know they're on the losing end with Israel

The misguided post-September 11 policies promoted by the Bush administration have reinforced the anti-Arab, anti-Muslim stance of most Americans. A recent Gallop poll suggests four out of 10 Americans feel "prejudice" toward Muslims.

These attitudes are nothing short of a slap in the face to Arab nations that have invested trillions of dollars in the US economy and consider themselves Washington's strategic partners.

What the Arab world gives America:

In reality the Arab world is far more beneficial to the US than Israel. Here's why:

What Americans sacrifice for Israel

What about the American people? What are they obliged to sacrifice for the sake of maintaining America's favored relation with Israel?

First on the list is the official figure of $3 billion each year, which American taxpayers donate to Israeli coffers whether they like it or not.

Is Israel grateful?

Are Israelis grateful for all this financial support? Do they feel loyalty to their kindly big brother across the ocean?

The answer is no. Many Israelis I've spoken to over the years feel positively hostile toward the US. They both resent having to rely on Washington's generosity as well as having to abide by its orders. This is anecdotal rather than science but the proof that Israel is deeply suspicious of the US is the fact that Israel continually spies on its number one ally.

Israel's strategic worth

The question is: What does the American government get in return for its unerring devotion to Israel? From the US government's perspective Israel stands as the guardian of its strategic interests throughout the Middle East.

It uses Israel to stir up trouble throughout the region, fight its proxy wars, test out cutting-edge US-made weaponry, and create a regional demand for American fighter jets, helicopters, tanks and missiles.

In previous years, Israel has served its master well by shipping illegal arms to prop up pro-US Central American dictatorships, Apartheid South Africa and groups within the Arab world out to topple anti-American nationalist regimes.

In turn, the US is committed to fighting Israel's wars.

"Why do they hate us?"

When it comes to Arabs and Muslims, a small percentage of which are seen on television burning US flags, Americans are fond of asking: "Why do they hate us?"

Until five years ago, the US was held up throughout the Arab world as a beacon of human rights and civil liberties; American technology and culture was admired, while Arab youth dreamt of studying and working in the US. This changed after September 11 when the Bush administration used this pretext to invade Afghanistan

and Iraq and began detaining Muslims without charge or trial.

See Link

5:18 AM  
Blogger ella said...

I don't see if how it is different from what was going on during Afghanistan war/Taliban regime. People from Saudi Arabia and other countries of the ME paid money to get to Afghanistan for couple of weeks to "experience" the war. They also paid money to whoever organized these trips.
They thought that in this way they advance THE CAUSE and get "kiks" out of it, same now in Israel. These people probably believe in fighting terrorism, they get lectures for their money and the feeling that they've done something for the CAUSE
See any difference, because I don't.

6:16 AM  
Blogger Chris Baker said...

Re: M2Timechange said...
> Wake up, America! Israel is no friend of yours

This opinion article was written by the chairman of Al Habtoor Group although I have no idea how significant that is. Unfortunately for Lebanon, Israel is very important to Bush for religious reasons as is the case for many Christian conservatives. I don't see that changing especially as there is so much pro-Israeli propaganda being put out on US Christian television, which Bush himself actually seems to believe.

As Seymour Hersh said the swearing in of a new US President in January, 2009, can't come soon enough because Bush is extremely dangerous. If the Democrats win the House in November that could neutralize Bush's pro-Israeli slant somewhat.

7:47 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

It is heartening to read such a string of rational responses, not on whether or not I agree with them, but for the fact that the overriding theme is respect and understanding.

Like almost any American, I want to believe that Bush isn't malicious, stupid and/or evil, but the evidence is stacked pretty high against him. The fact is that our government is out of control. The good news is that mid-term elections are around the corner, and we as citizens get to decide if we want to continue on this course.

Personally, I would like to live in a world where, when I visit another nation, America is seen as a beacon, not because we inflict our values and opinions on others, but because we lead by example. I would love to be able to visit the Middle East and not feel ashamed for what my nation has been involved in. But most importantly, as a father of three children, I want to believe that I am bringing my children up in a world that can be better tomorrow than it is today, and that I am not raising my children simply for my government to throw their lives away in an unjust war. The madness must stop.

8:06 AM  
Blogger susu said...

I completely agree with u Rick that this world is a better place for future generations but in the end that need is not in the interest of of any country!

11:27 AM  
Blogger M2Timechange said...

Madness, greed, cruel must stop, you are right Rick.

Bush, Olmert and Blair are a schemer that many leaders from other continents are aware of what is happening except the Americans and Israelis. Last year, I observed many Asian leaders turned to Middle East countries for business instead of US. It would be wise for Arab countries to build up rapport with Asian countries since US did not treasure investment opportunities given to them for the benefits of Americans. The attitude of US, UK and Israel leaders must change as world communities could not tolerate any longer with such unwelcome attitude.

1:42 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

Great point, m2, and China will fill the void created by hate for America. We cut off our nose to spite our face.

Susu...a question; I couldn't tell from the "tone" of your post, were you being ironic? Because my first impression was that your response indicated that our nation, or more directly our government, ultimately feels that it benefits from all the lunacy and destruction. By keeping us afraid, the can maintain control. But I wasn't sure if that was what you intended.

As I mentioned in a post above, for those who have not seen it, please see the movie, "V for Vendetta." It is a disturbing glimpse into what the US, the UK, and Israel are turning into. And it will continue until as citizens we speak up.

4:43 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Do you remember?

-1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by
a. Superman
b . Jay Lenno
c. Harry Potter
d. Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40

1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by
a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

2. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

& nbsp; 3.During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

4. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

5. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

6.In 1985TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

7.In 1988,Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

8. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. MichaelJordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

9.In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill' s women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

10.On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed
into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers.Thousands of people were killed by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

11.In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
a. Enron
b. The LutheranChurch
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

12. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonnie and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremist s mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

13. 2004 - Spain Railwayy bombings.
Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


14. 2005 London Railway bombings
Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Nope, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you?

So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile
certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents of the President's
security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winning and former Governor Joe Foss, but leave
Muslim Males between the ages 17 and 40 alone because of profiling.

Let's send this to as many people as we can so that the Gloria Aldreds and other dunder-headed attorneys along with Federal Justices that want to thwart
common sense, feel doubly ashamed of themselves - if they have any such sense.

As the writer of the award winning story "Forrest Gump" so aptly put it, "Stupid is as stupid does."

5:25 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

I think I understand Susu's frustration, Rick - it's born of the kind of hopelessness created by an inability to do anything about the situation. Susu is genuinely talking from her (I think "her" is right) heart.

But, Susu - read some of what others on all sides are saying. The "countries" are not, necessarily, "the people." That is what is wrong with saying "Lebanon must eliminate Hezbollah." As if Lebanon can. And, since Lebanon doesn't or cannot, then it's "those arabs" or those "islamic fascists." The United States has the largest economy in the world and swings a lot of weight economically and militarily. But not all the people in the US agree with what is going on and eventually will change it. Not because it's not "in our interest" but because we don't think it's right. It's happened before - "we, the people" rose up and demanded an end to the Vietnam nightmare. We demanded an end to corruption in government and elected Jimmy Carter - not because of his brilliance and abilities, but because he was and is a decent man who reflected the qualities we want in our leaders. At that time, at least. Fear, hate and lies got us into Iraq. Calmer, wiser people will get us out.

Don't lose your faith in goodness It will prevail. It is Gotterdamerung. But, remember - the Rhine Maidens survived.

5:27 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Sam - let's call a truce in the filthfest for a moment and try understanding. You seem to want to make a point but you do it in ways that are inexplicable. You seem to favor Israel and the United States but you say things and say them in a way that makes everyone - regardless of their views - look at you as nuts, make fun of you and then ignore you.

Why do you do that? Now you post a long piece of nonsense you got in one of those "don't break the chain - send this to at least five of your friends in the next ten minutes" emails that most of us delete as spam. You post, apparently without reading, an Israeli Ministry of Tourism article and say it demonstrates why Israel is right and everyone else is wrong. You talk filth constantly and usually don't even attempt to make sense - you seem to simply spew words without regard to either their meaning or effect.

Why? Why not join in a meaningful way? Why not open your mind to learning something you may not know? Why not try to make friends rather than enemies? Why do you insist on talking as you do knowing it makes you look foolish and hateful?

All you really accomplish is to show the effect of unthinking, unreasonable hate on any attempt to communicate. Which, of course, is the main reason the middle east stays in turmoil.

5:38 PM  
Blogger Mr Wrath said...

Let me take a reality break because this stuff isn't all that difficult....Sam started out OK, but his intelligence was insulted, and his opinions that differed from others here disregarded as idiotic nonsense, and so he became frustrated and started demand attention by posting agressively...and we all watched as it worked. He soon learned that even though he was getting responses, he was not posting what he would like, and as an intelligent sort, even he knew his posts were childish....

So he tried to regain his composure and post his actual opinions again in ana adult manner, and yet again since he doesn't grow flowers in a VW bug, wear tie-dye, and shun any thoughts that exclude absolute peace and a big hug for everyone....his opinions were not respected, so the cycle continued.

You can blog forever about how people are so closed minded, but you don't even see that you are the same way.

I 100% agree with Sam that Muslims for decades have been violent terrorists, but OMFG if I say that....well I must be brainwashed by the US media, or uneducated, or whatever else you deem people who disagree with your opinion....

6:09 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Nicely said, Mr. Wrath. I suppose you think my complaint is because I do "grow flowers in a VW bug, wear tie-dye, and shun any thoughts that exclude absolute peace and a big hug for everyone."

My complaint is not about his having different views - I invite them and, had you read anything I've written here, you would understand that.

My complaint is his referring to the women here as "cunts" and spewing his vile filth about all religions. It is not "childish" - it is ku klux klan kind of hate mongering. He tried for weeks to bait me with his vile comments about the troops in my command who died. Even now he tries to bait me the same way. That's not a "different view" - that is vile filth.

then the renaissance based on the idea it was an experiment to see if anyone could forgive such a hateful person. And now the second coming - based on no one could forgive him so he will go back to his hateful ways.

My purpose was to simply ask why he couldn't join in some meaningful way - not agree with me or join in a group hug. Just stop the crap and speak like a grown up. I know he disagrees with my opinion - or at least I think he does when I wade through the filth to see if something really is buried there.

But - my attempt was simply to stop all of that. And in you come with the idea I am so closed minded that I would write such a thing. And you come wandering in to say "I 100% agree with Sam that Muslims for decades have been violent terrorists, but OMFG if I say that....well I must be brainwashed by the US media, or uneducated, or whatever else you deem people who disagree with your opinion.... "

It's not the US Media or uneducated people who have "brainwashed" you. It's simply your decision to disagree with no inclination to veer from your "100% agreement" that "Muslims for decades have been violent terrorists." Sort of like, "niggers cant float and for sure shouldn't be able to vote." Right?

6:43 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

LOL.... oh, don't you just wish that the hippie stereotype applied to those of us preaching peace. If only life were that easy.

I am a moderate, and normally a hawk in military situations. But as I began to look at the root causes of this conflict, as I have seen our troops come home and tell me they had no idead why we are even in Iraq, a reasonable person must stop gobbling up what is being fed to us and take our own critical look.

For Gawd sakes, I voted for King George I in 1988 and completely supported the first war in Iraq. I still support that effort. But I can view each situation on its own merits (rather than blindly follow) and can tell you in no uncertain terms that the current war in Iraq is illegal. And I am very concerned that our current policy of "Fu*k it, let's invade them" diminishes our nation internally, as well as how others view us. Finally, as I posted before, I am not raising three children so that my government can use them as fodder for economic or political interests.

You are welcome to your opinion supporting US and Israeli policy. I think it is short-sighted, but I respect your right to have that view. However, you have not been on here calling people "cunts." There is never an excuse for that type of behavior, and Sam is getting treated the way he deserves to be treated.

He doesn't like it? Too bad; go get a tissue. I choose to ignore him so that I don't even find myself tempted to dig my way down to his level.

7:26 PM  
Blogger Mr Wrath said...

Perhaps I did go a bit overboard with my comments, but the fact remains that Muslims have been attacking us in the name of religion for quite some time.

I haven't read every single post on here, so maybe I missed some things.

I don't support Bush or what Israel has done.

2:35 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Good for you - it's a good person who will look inward. I don't support what Bush or Israel has done either. But I simply cannot stomach psychopathic chickenhawks like "Sam". He is more than happy to send others into battle to kill whoever it is who is the target of his ire. He doesn't have to have the vaguest idea of what he's talking about - he just spews hate and filth and then sends the kids into harms way. When he's challenged he reacts with the vilest imaginable filth - even filth that is completely unimaginable. Like wondering if I sodomized the soldier who died in my arms. Jump to the top topic here and see how he is now/

Glad to meet you.

4:24 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

Thanks Mr. Wrath, and I welcome a discussion on why Muslims are so angry at the West. There are some very legitimate reasons, and then some that are trumped up simply so that radicals can appear less radical. There is truth on both sides. My concern is that the good old US of A only hears one side of the story, because only one side will be tolerated. As a nation, we glorify freedom of the press, but then permit our press to be owned by conglomerates that give in to political pressure. That is not a "free" press. The report on CNN this past week about Israel inviting attacks by intentionally leaving weapons behind for Hezbollah, and how quickly it disappeared, should establish in a reasonable person's mind that we are not getting the full story. That's why I started visiting blogs like this; so I could become informed and educated.

I am a believer that we can agree or disagree and still remain civil, and if everyone posting on this blog believed that I think there would be some incredibly productive discussions. I value posts from hcb, lilu, doc, lola, chris and others because I gain enlightenment out of what they have to say, and I am sure I can learn from you as well. I love the information posted by the authors of this blog because it shows me another perspective... one I won't gain from CNN, Fox, CBS, or for that matter even al Jazeera.

But I'll keep watching CNN, if only because Soledad O'Brien is so hot! :-)

5:25 PM  
Blogger mejnuni said...

hey rick,hcb,sam mr wrath etc etc, might I politely suggest you check out what alot of americans are doing. american scholars is a good start.though they are not long haired and LSD users(maybe they were once)you will find that unlike 20 years ago more and more americans are reading ,listening to sites like beirut live and also pay attention to the ellections its always important to vote where you are allowed to. The world is not moving fast enough to my liking but it has certainly picked up.also check out

And remember its not good practice to generalize and I know we are all guilty of it(mostly when we are lazy)BUT their are many Arab Muslim Americans and Indian Americans and Lebanese Ameriicans and yes Israeli Americans and Jewish americans etc etc who are watching and wanting peace. Understanding does not mean agreeing,but it is key to "communications" another key is understanding and being understood. Sometimes i speak to fast or too abruptly and I don't make my points clearly understood. I think you will appreciate these sites. but please come back to Beirutlive its doing incredible work and alot of people are watching BEIRUT LIVE and it IS making a wishes
PS I think you guys scared susu (smile)
PSS I rent 2 places to 2 different LIL ol ladies in their 80's and they know who to contact and those ol gals are rocking with their words and they are being .heard and listened to .makes me proud.(smile)KEEP up the good work BEIRUT LIVE those gals love your reporting.

4:59 AM  

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