What is the logic behind this war?
This is what Israel causes everytime it decides to go into a violent war. More unecessary hatred and problems. Maybe this is why Haaretz chose to publish the following commentary.
Israel should pack up and go
By Nadim Shehadi
What is the logic that will emerge from this war? If Israel can exist only by destroying the neighborhood, then it's time to declare it a failed state. The Zionist dream has turned into a nightmare and is not viable. If the future holds more of the same, then the time has come to reconsider the whole project. Every state has a duty to defend its citizens, but also it has a duty to provide them with security and the two are different.
The prospects are for more destruction, fanaticism, violence and hatred. No unilateral separation can isolate Israel from this, nor can the region or the world live with the consequences. This seems to be the only choice, and Israel must do itself and others a favor and go away. The occupation of the West Bank and Gaza shows a country deprived of all humanity. The West Bank is unliveable, the population strangled into three prison clusters. Concrete barriers, barbed wires, bypass roads, human beings emerging like rats from underground tunnels, daily humiliation from hundreds of checkpoints. Gaza has been under siege since the population dared to elect Hamas, its infrastructure has been obliterated and its population has been driven to despair in what now seems like a dress rehearsal for what was to come in Lebanon. Lebanon woke up on July 12 to a reality that can destroy the very fabric of society. Divided between those who believe in a "riviera" with consensus politics, power sharing and a weak state, and those who, like Hezbollah, see the necessity of having a fortress to resist an evil and dangerous enemy. Israel's behavior will see the logic of the latter prevail.
Yet the Lebanese system is resilient. PM Fouad Siniora, under the bombs, was able to extract a consensus for a seven-point plan where the victorious fortress accepted to go back to the political process to resolve the crisis. Lebanon still managed to challenge the U.S. and Israel through sheer persistence, and in a diplomatic tour de force it was successful in steering the UN Security Council toward a political rather than military solution. For the first time, Arab foreign ministers have been mobilized and actively lobbied international legality. There is deliberate targeting of civilians: Israel can deny it, but at the very least, those Israelis who are doing it know it is true. Over 17,000 people were killed in the invasion of 1982, and the net result was the creation of Hezbollah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad. There is a doctrine that says Arabs need to be crushed, that they can be bombed into submission, that they will eventually fall on their knees. It is the doctrine, not its application, that is flawed. It says that by terrorizing the population, they will respect us and make peace; it says that those who dare resist need to be eradicated through targeted assassination and their supporters annihilated no matter what the cost. The only lessons Israel learned is that it should do it better next time. Three Arab countries have peace treaties or diplomatic relations with Israel, most of the Gulf states have or had commercial bureaus, Saudi Arabia came up with the King Abdallah plan offering Israel normalization - something that was not achieved in nearly 30 years of peace with Egypt. Tunisia and Morocco have excellent relations with Israel. Even rogues like Syria and Libya give out positive vibes - the former desperate to resume peace talks unconditionally. The region has a history of tolerance and coexistence; minorities, including Jews, have survived and prospered for centuries. Israel is blind to any positive developments, and this will soon make these positions and those who hold them disappear, their stance untenable. Lebanon can reconstruct airports, roads, bridges, and factories; bury and mourn the dead, rebuild shattered lives. Israel has barely been there for 60 years, a millisecond in history, but enough time to judge the results. If the fundamental moral logic is flawed, then it is time to give up, pack up and go.
The writer, a Lebanese economist, is an Associate Fellow at the Middle East Program at Chatham House.
Israel should pack up and go
By Nadim Shehadi
What is the logic that will emerge from this war? If Israel can exist only by destroying the neighborhood, then it's time to declare it a failed state. The Zionist dream has turned into a nightmare and is not viable. If the future holds more of the same, then the time has come to reconsider the whole project. Every state has a duty to defend its citizens, but also it has a duty to provide them with security and the two are different.
The prospects are for more destruction, fanaticism, violence and hatred. No unilateral separation can isolate Israel from this, nor can the region or the world live with the consequences. This seems to be the only choice, and Israel must do itself and others a favor and go away. The occupation of the West Bank and Gaza shows a country deprived of all humanity. The West Bank is unliveable, the population strangled into three prison clusters. Concrete barriers, barbed wires, bypass roads, human beings emerging like rats from underground tunnels, daily humiliation from hundreds of checkpoints. Gaza has been under siege since the population dared to elect Hamas, its infrastructure has been obliterated and its population has been driven to despair in what now seems like a dress rehearsal for what was to come in Lebanon. Lebanon woke up on July 12 to a reality that can destroy the very fabric of society. Divided between those who believe in a "riviera" with consensus politics, power sharing and a weak state, and those who, like Hezbollah, see the necessity of having a fortress to resist an evil and dangerous enemy. Israel's behavior will see the logic of the latter prevail.
Yet the Lebanese system is resilient. PM Fouad Siniora, under the bombs, was able to extract a consensus for a seven-point plan where the victorious fortress accepted to go back to the political process to resolve the crisis. Lebanon still managed to challenge the U.S. and Israel through sheer persistence, and in a diplomatic tour de force it was successful in steering the UN Security Council toward a political rather than military solution. For the first time, Arab foreign ministers have been mobilized and actively lobbied international legality. There is deliberate targeting of civilians: Israel can deny it, but at the very least, those Israelis who are doing it know it is true. Over 17,000 people were killed in the invasion of 1982, and the net result was the creation of Hezbollah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad. There is a doctrine that says Arabs need to be crushed, that they can be bombed into submission, that they will eventually fall on their knees. It is the doctrine, not its application, that is flawed. It says that by terrorizing the population, they will respect us and make peace; it says that those who dare resist need to be eradicated through targeted assassination and their supporters annihilated no matter what the cost. The only lessons Israel learned is that it should do it better next time. Three Arab countries have peace treaties or diplomatic relations with Israel, most of the Gulf states have or had commercial bureaus, Saudi Arabia came up with the King Abdallah plan offering Israel normalization - something that was not achieved in nearly 30 years of peace with Egypt. Tunisia and Morocco have excellent relations with Israel. Even rogues like Syria and Libya give out positive vibes - the former desperate to resume peace talks unconditionally. The region has a history of tolerance and coexistence; minorities, including Jews, have survived and prospered for centuries. Israel is blind to any positive developments, and this will soon make these positions and those who hold them disappear, their stance untenable. Lebanon can reconstruct airports, roads, bridges, and factories; bury and mourn the dead, rebuild shattered lives. Israel has barely been there for 60 years, a millisecond in history, but enough time to judge the results. If the fundamental moral logic is flawed, then it is time to give up, pack up and go.
The writer, a Lebanese economist, is an Associate Fellow at the Middle East Program at Chatham House.
posted by beirutlive at 7:08 PM
61 Comments:
Once again, it's all Israel's fault huh? And we're the blind ones? You'll drown in your own igonorance.
anthonyb,
You are mistaken on 99.9% of what you are saying if not 100%. Since Israel is not legitimate and is a state built by terrorism and thrives upon maintaining it. It is the cause of all what you have stated. So yes! Removing Israel will make the world a better place. It is naive to think now that completely removing Israel is a solution to all Middle East problems (which would help a great deal if it remains as an oppressor of nations), but one thing for sure is that removing Israel from Lebanon is a must to ensure democracy, friendship and all the other points which you mentioned.
Your comment on Hezbullah's coup is typical of post cease fire propaganda to probe the legitimacy of the Lebanese resistance.
The Lebanese are proud to have men defend their country against Israeli oppression.
Shame on anyone who thinks otherwise. Power played its part in this war and now soliderity is important to maintain resistance against Israel.
Wake up and be strong ... My best wishes to all who read this blog. Please open your eyes and ears and hearts and believe in Lebanon as one and stand in the face of any who cause it harm.
Peace
anthonyb---tell that to the US, as this latest conflict was their brain child.
BTW, war started decades ago, not just 1 month ago.
i dont think israel should be removed as a state, but i think it should change from a military with a state, to a state with a military.
Long live Lebanon and all its people.
Kevin From USA
How can you say this is the brain child of the US. Do you know somthing that we don't know. What makes you think we have any more control over Israel then the Lebanon has over Hezbollah. I can't sit here and let our country take the blame for everything that is wrong in the world. there is plenty of blame to go around lets share.
Kevin--of course Israel should be held accountable, not just US..and of course the US knew about this and agreed with it as their stance and war against "terror"....it was a plan that was implemented poorly...but make no mistake, the US can turn Israel anyway it wants--"You say yes, we say go."
The same thing does not hold true between Leb govt and HZ. Everyone knows that...
I dont agree with how HZ re-ignited the conflict (a plan ready and waiting to happen), but their defense was legitimate.
Not a fan of US, Israeli or HZ policy but these are the facts.
Kevin, read this article in The New Yorker:
http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/060821fa_fact
I keep hearing about unjust occupation.....Isreal oppression on Arab lands. Yet, Isreal pulls out of Gaza and Isreal pulls out of southern Lebonanon - it's Isreal who "is blind to any positive developments"??? Seems to me that the only gratitude they got were more missile attacks and more kidnappings. Poke a dog enough times with a stick and you gotta expect that dog to bite back - and hope it lets go, right?
Another quick observation on this blog. I see a lot blame going around and goodness knows there's plenty to go around on both sides of the fence - from the US to Iran/Syria to the UN - but what realistic constructive solutions are available. Realistic and constructive - an oxymoron in this case? I hope not....
Hopefully soon, Mortimer. But it won't be during the Bush Administration.
Anyone who thinks Israel has "pulled out" of Gaza needs their ears pulling and their eyes propping open. As someone said recently, the jailer moved his family out of the prison but it is still a prison.
Realistic and constructive solutions would be for Israel to negotiate withdrawals from occupied terrritories,instead of trying to impose unilateral solutions
Kevin From USA
HCB Thank you for the link I thought it was a good article. But it had no named source of there information so I will have to take it as if it was the authors point of view not a fact. I do think that there was a plan for this. But I also agree with a post from way back that said the US has a plain for invading every country out there that is not setting a trap but being prepared. As far as this being a prelude to an invasion to Iran I don't think so (I sure hope not) you will have to come up with a source on that point.
Daooch the solution is blogs like this it is us teaching our children about other cultures and respect for others. The world today is closer then ever we no longer have to take the word of our leaders we can go on the Internet and ask some there what is going on
Israel is an occupying entity by force since it's creation in 48 so don't assume that pulling out of Gaza etc is doing Palestinians a favor.
Since Israel is a country mainly being built for Jews to settle then it should do everyone a favor and do what the Jewish religion states. That is the people of Israel have no home and are forever to roam the earth amongst other peoples.
No worries, the creation of the Israeli nation land is the beginning of their end. this is not my opinion, this is what it states in the Jewish religion.
I say keep building and the rest of the world will wait for the sheet to get fat enough for the picking ;-) if you get my drift.
But then this is just me. You can now go back to pretending that Israel is legitimate and a peaceful nation who has the right to defend itself from terorists like Hezballah and Hamas.
Peace
Okay so I started from the top and worked my way down. Some of you berate anyone who says anything other than what you think. I truly wonder where you get your facts. You say some news agencies are very biased, what about the ones you're referring too? Most of you proclaim how smart you are and how knowledgeable you are on the topics. Are you really, why not look and really listen to all the info AVA with an open mind. If you did that your stance wouldn't be so one sided. No one can tell me that both sides are 100% right but your all leaning so hard to one side it's not even believable. Peace starts with understanding and working with the people you hate the most.
Why not start now, I know everyone here hates me and that was the plan. I still am not concerned with what you think of me. I have nothing against Arabs, Muslims, Jews, Lebanese, Palestinians and or anyone else. Okay the terrorists need to be worked on, they definitely try the sprit of all people even the ones that are associated with them in direct or indirect ways.
I truly do feel that the war was a waste of so much. People, freedom and things that I will never understand but there are so many guilty parties. Sitting on your computer playing the blame game is getting you where? How is this helping? If it makes you feel better then we’ve already lost and we will never know peace in our time. Our kids will only know war and hate.
Instead of blaming people or governments open an honest dialog that can generate some new ideas. Then send those to the powers to be, and keep trying to get through.
If people unite weather you believe in their culture, nationality, religion or sex nothing is out of reach.
I know, I know stop correcting my writing!
Kevin from USA
O my god I have to agree with sam on the last part of his post
Thanks Kevin, I know that was hard to say. It does mean allot.
I am not a hater and it killed me to write that trash. I do not act like that, I am not that person. But sometimes the hate makes you so blind that you don't think. Being American means that we have to support all countries, creeds and so on with out price or prodigious. I don’t want an American world, I want a peaceful world.
Kevin From USA
What Idea's do you have I do Think blogs like this do help they let us see the other side and that is a start. And I'm glad you are not that person!
When people come onto a blog like this and support a different view don't beat them up. Ask the questions first and accept their view with judgment. Who say's I'm right anyway? Once we do that people are less likely to react in a negative way. then true open dialog starts. It will spread and become a brain storming group filled with real ideas. Don't just write your leaders and tell they stick or need to change it. Give them ideas, their just like you and me. If it sounds good they will listen too but it may take time.
I'm still trying to come up with my ideas, I reallt have been reading and have so for years. I am in Manufacturing so if I spell some words wrong or such then okay stop telling me.
Sam--i am not sure if that is you or not, because i was convinced you are evil..doesnt matter anyway.
The point is not that we lean to one side. The point is that the US and everyone that believes its BS policy leans to one side.
Perhaps we do pull heavily to the other side so that people who are not well informed about the reality of the middle east understand a little more---hopefully creating a little balance. We are not saying we understand everything...but unless you live there or talk to people who live there and know the experiences first hand, you cannot say anything definitively.
Its just like a guy from the OC commenting on what it is to live in Watts or S. Central.
Peace will not come unless there is truth.
Kevin from USA
I never will say anything about spelling. I have to write everything on my word processor first then copy and past it to the blog. The only Idea I have come up with is we need to let our congress know that they need to get aid Lebanon if they ever want to make peace now is the time (a friend in need is a friend indeed)
It's not a school report, fuck spelling, and fuck people who find one word in an entire post spelled wrong and think that makes you a retard because you don't proof read a blog post....you type and post.
OK, so here's Sam who fucked up many conversations with his school kid bullshit, and now in one post wants us to take him serious? Guess what twat, you mom is balancing my beer on her muslem cunt.
You tell me why after all you've done here, anyone should give your opinions any merit?
Hey anon, no worries. Judge me for where I live. If America is to blame then how do we fix it? Bashing me helps how? Telling me I'm not experienced is moving us forward how? It's not. If the world hates us [most] hwta can we do to change the perception?
Be a part of the soultion not the problem. It's to easy to judge and hate, the real winners are the ones who take the hard road. Peace is the hardest road to take.
One one has to give me any consideration. But if you're all so true to peace, knlowledge and understanding then why not listen.
I'm not asking for friends right now. I am asking for open dialog.
If you can do it with me after what I said then you truely are better people wanting more in life then just bitching. You want peace.
thanks, did greta in history, math and science but English....... bad subjest.
Kevin From USA
Then forget sam but I would like to know how can I help? What should the US do? I have a computer and a lot of email contacts. What should we tell are goverment?
You've been screwing up "open dialog" for days now....are you high on something now? Do you remember the things you have said?
Here's a clue, if you say things to girls that will get you hit in real life....such as calling them cunts etc, and you do this hiding behind a monitor many miles away....you are a jackass pussy.
You would never say those things in real life would you? coward asshole...go back to hate spewing cuz I don't give a fuck about your opinion on anything.
That's a great question but don't beat me up if I can't give you a statement right this second. There are so many idea's in my head but in this group you have to really be careful what you say and how you say it. I'm trying to think it out in a open way sensitive to everyone.
Sam (if it is you)... I don't know that the "shock value" you used accomplished much... you could have introduced yourself into this conversation with a demonstration of respect for others, which would give you credibility when making your arguments.
But I welcome intelligent discourse, which is why I am writing in response to you.
I know you sense "hate" in these posts, but that is your perception, and not always the intent of people writing. Additionally, it is hard for people not to write very emotionally when bombs are falling around them. I ask you to consider this.
I agree peace is the answer. Peace requires dialogue. As a mediator, I can tell you that this dialogue requires us to discuss some very emotional issues, and as long as we handle our emotions well, this is ok. The past needs to be dealt with for us to have a successful future.
As I have commented before, one of the problems with the "Promised Land" is that it was promised to too many people. There is a lot of history, and a lot of blood. And all groups (Christians, Muslims, and Jews) are guilty of spilling that blood in the name of their God. It is not a pretty situation, and there are no easy answers.
In the current case at hand, we need to acknowledge that Hezbollah, Israel, Iran, Syria, and the United States all bear some responsibility for what took place; we all contributed. The civilians on both sides of the border are the innocent victims here, and no, they did not have an opportunity to change the environment. It is one thing for us to be able to play "armchair quarterback." It is quite another to live there and live the experience. Imagine mortars falling next to your house. It's a frightening proposition.
For me, I personally despise the empire building that the United States of America, my nation and my home, is engaged in. The beauty of a democracy is that I get to disagree and I get to speak my mind. But I would never be so arrogant to presume that our way of life is that way that everyone must live, and that we have the right to impose our values on others. If our way is the "right" way, people will eventually see that on their own.
Again, I welcome honest, frank, intelligent, and even emotional discussion. But the pitiful attacks, racist comments (whether or not you think you are racist), and other forms of personal insults accomplish absolutely nothing, and only wreck your credibility. Would you have introduced yourself to us this way if you had met us on the street? The internet is no different, other than providing some anonymity for those that want and/or need it. Note that I do not choose to hide behind this anonymity; I have no problem being accountable for what I say.
I hope that further discussions with you in the future will continue to reflect the intelligence that has appeared in your last several posts.
Peace.
did someone say you were 35? There is no fucking way you are 35 acting like you do.
Why are you Anon then, who is it? I know but thats okay. Hate is easy. I've never done drugs.
Sorry Kevin, this group is to closed minded.
Kevin From USA
Yes sam has been an ass! But the point has been made we do have the ability to change thins if we want. What do we want to change?
It's my fault I took it too far.
How to open Dialog with the younger Mulim faith that is so angry with their surroundings. If we can understand their problems then we can be more sensitive. Problems may not be the right word but it was easy.
sam said...
It's my fault I took it too far.
I hope you mean this and KNOW it...real people are dying...this isn't a game. People are in misery as the children are dead. Because it is far away doesn't mean you should show the world your lack of character.
I have bashed enough....done now, if you want to actually share your thoughts on an adult level...let's hear what you've got.
Rick I did start that way. But I got trashed right away. So I took a left at Albuquerque and tried something to draw out the hate. You think I like calling women that, nope. My girlfriend would kill me if she ever heard me say it. Not to say what my mum would do. Plus in side me it did hurt but you guys are very tough and not to open to fixing, only pointing as did i.
Yes, Sam, very true. And understanding the problems means dealing with their history, and their anger. Why did that anger develop? I will bet it just doesn't happen on its own.
A nation was artificially created by the powers of the day in order to appease a population. other people suffered as a result. There is NO easy answer to this, but to interrupt the cycle of violence, we must demonstrate an ability to engage in dialogue instead of always responding with force.
No one will be able to turn the situation around overnight, but we can take steps.
I appreciate your comment Sam.... I think one needs to have a fairly thick skin to engage in these conversations and lacking one might have made you take that left at Albuquerque (great Bugs Bunny reference!).
So, for those of us still willing to talk to you, let's just not take any more tangents like that. I gotta run for now, but look forward to chatting with folks tonight.
Peace.
People have been dying for a long time. Women Children husnabds fathers wives, you name it. What monster would really want that. Look at all of the hate spewed in the last week, where are we now? Nowhere, but being one sided is a form of hate too.
Open minds see clearly, I see very clear. I never stepped on flag, I tour not one page from the Koran. I did buy it though. But the words alone was like a knife.
So listen to me or not, your call but your no better than the people pulling the trigger.
There's nothing easy about it, but we can either stand in the rain and get wet or all pull together and build a roof to be dry and warm.
Which is it?
Thank you, it's nice being a human again.....
Anon 1:16
You would never say those things in real life would you? coward asshole...go back to hate spewing cuz I don't give a fuck about your opinion on anything.
Well I'm sure I know who this is but thats okay. He has his ways I used mine. Right or wrong I showed that it's so hard to find peace when someone is against everything you stand for. So be bigger than me, thats the hard part.
I've been looking for it in the news and can't find it. Can any of you in Beirut tell me if the blockade has been lifted and any aid is flowing in?
Kevin from USA
If we are trying to understand each other I have to tell you that I'm a Republican and I did vote for Bush both times I do feel he is not evil and is trying to do what he thinks is right. Please under stand that a lot of in America do not understand what is going on. We need to be informed! After 9/11 all I saw was that we were minding our own business and we were attacked for now reason at all. ( I reallies that is not complete true) and as for Iraq I was and still in support of are army in there. What I saw and many of us including our Representatives was Sodom telling the world that he supported our destruction and that a lot of chemical weapons were missing. Also a lot of people coming out of Iraq we telling our intelligence office that he was still making them. ( come to find out they all most all had ties with Iran) that is whey I still feal we fell right into Iran's trap the same as Israel fell into Hezbollah s trap I still support our army there because if we were to pull out now all hell would break lose. Most Americans that I know want our troops home but feel we have to stay till The mess can be sorted out no one excepts the Iraq government to be the same as the us they don't have to be are friends ( not hate us would be nice) and I think what ever government they end up with will be better than Sodom.
Now on to sams point about doing some thing about the problems of the world we have an opportunity that never was there before we can all come up with what the us government needs to understand to help and draft it into a letter those of us in the US can forward it around to friends and family and requesting the to send it off to there representatives . I'm the IT person for a small company but we have our own web server I could even set up a web site so that Ideas can be voted on. Israeli's can do the same on there side informing there government on what to do along with the rest of the world. I hope that we can take the power of the Internet and put it to work If we just sit and talk about it it dose help in that our kids some day might have the understanding that we lack. But I would like to leave my kids peace not the tools to fix our mess.
From Asia
It's high time for leaders and all of us to go back to school and study, apply and exhibit “Emotional Intelligent”.
Treat others the way they want to be treated.
” Greed and fear”: drives one emotion to make decision. More often than not, differences that poorly handled turn into conflicts.
Respect people around you regardless of their race, religion, status and position.
There is no right and wrong for one to express his/her view, but the manner the view is being presented that count.
War is not the solution to the problem.
We have to break the ice cubes, the concrete brick wall of man made that clouding over the whole situation.
Eliminate the barriers of cultures, religion, rich and poor that could have prevented the negotiation processes.
Life is short and our time in this planet is precious, understand and help one another that could allow us to live in harmony.
From Asia
Your post to Anon 1:16 concerns me because you say “well I’m sure I know who this is but that’s okay.” And then you say how you “don’t give a fuck about your opinion on anything.” My concern is that you might have thought I am “Anon 1:16.” I want everyone to know I am not. I also want to leave no doubt about my feelings concerning your announced epiphany or joke or lesson or whatever it is you say you were doing.
First, don’t confuse “disinterest” with “dislike.” I don’t hate or even dislike you – I have no use for you and really don’t care enough about anything you say or do to form an emotional response. But I do care what others think and, therefore, explain myself to them.
I commanded F Troop, 2nd Squadron, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment in shooting combat in Vietnam. You obviously have never served in any armed force so you have no idea of the affection and bond that develops between troops in the army – especially when they are in harm’s way. But, instead of simply remaining quiet in your complete ignorance, you determined to press your invective way beyond any boundary of decency. Go back and read what you said about William Young – the man who died in my arms. He was nineteen. He was black and he was poor. He was from Palatka, Florida. He had a mother and a father. He was the first man in my command who was killed. My troop and I were in our first fire fight – the first time we had ever been shot at. I was a very young captain and I was in command. My decisions determined every move we made and would make. In the middle of that, William Young – a young man in my command whose life depended on my decisions - was shot through his left lung. An AK-47 round went through his flak jacket, through his lung, through his back and out the back of his flak jacket. I called the helicopter to evacuate him. I held him as he told me how hot he felt and I tried to plug the sucking chest wound. He bled from the mouth, Sam. He was dying in front of me and there was nothing I could do other than try to close the hole in him. I loaded him on the helicopter and I took the radio call that he had died on the way to the aid station. Now – read again what you had to say about that incident and about him and about me.
A week later, three men were killed when they rolled over a booby trapped dud artillery round and it exploded under them. My best friend – the man who I went through four years at the Military Academy with – was killed by a bullet in his throat before he saw his baby boy. He and I met his wife at the same instant. She and I still are friends. He also was killed performing his duty as he saw it in the defense of the country you call your home and about which you spout so much in your shouting about being a good American. You don’t have the right to speak as you did – no matter your purpose, you do not have the right to say such things as you did. Not about me, not about the men who served with me and not about the friends I lost. But I ignore what you said because I think of you as completely insignificant. You will never be the man Ken Dean – my best friend - was. Or William Young. Never.
If you had been within striking distance when you talked to and about Lola and Lilu as you did, you would not be able to walk or even sit up right now. There is not a man alive who I would permit to talk to or about a woman as you did. Not only did you show your true self that way, you taunted me and tried to call me out with your filthy comments about my mother and sister and daughter. You speak of Arabian women as the one coward I had in the 210 officers and men in my troop spoke of Vietnamese women – he spoke of them as “gooks” and went so far as to fire on them for no reason, He thereafter spent nearly his entire time in my troop in a concertina barbed wire cage I had him build for himself. I disarmed him, placed him under arrest and ultimately evacuated him to Saigon for his court martial. I don’t care if he had an epiphany similar to yours while he served his sentence in Leavenworth. So far as I was – and am – concerned, there was no reason for me to concern myself about him.
You say it hurt you to talk as you did and that it wasn’t the “real” you. Really? You now would kid yourself as well as the rest of us. The kind of filth you spewed flows from the inner self – not from something you are inventing at the time. You don’t even have the courage to admit your bigotry and explain how you honestly have determined to attempt a change. Rather, you simply say what now makes you feel good and then exclaim that you “don’t give a fuck” about anyone’s opinion of you.
Be glad others – including Lola and Lilu – will talk to you. So far as I’m concerned it is as one other poster said to you: “you are no more significant than the squeak of a mouse in a hurricane.” And I really don’t care what you think of me.
From a US perspective this economist described Hezbollah as seeing"the necessity of having a fortress to resist an evil and dangerous enemy". However have you noticed Nasaralla seems very anxious to avoid any situation where it might become apparent that he can't control the sophisticated military force he has created?
What concerns Israel is not the "fortress" aspect of Hezbollah in this blatant propaganda article, but the fact there are Hezbollah fighters in south Lebanon with extremely sophisticated weaponry who CANNOT BE CONTROLLED. Hezbollah fighters were already firing off mortars and it could easily get worse - for example a group could on their own start firing off rockets into Israel. I'm not even certain Nasaralla authorized the kidnapping and killing of Israeli soldiers that set this conflict off.
Then we have this rapid about-face with Nasaralla first approving the Lebanese military to go into south Lebanon, and now not approving it. First the UN peacekeeper force can deploy, and now it can't. Hezbollah will consider disarming, now it won't. Isn't it rather obvious that Nasaralla is worried that it will become obvious that he can't control some of Hezbollah's own fighters?
Meanwhile the Lebanese military has, in spite of a lot of criticism, seemed to obey their orders. We have all been very impressed in the US at how law and order was seemingly maintained in Lebanon under situations of chaos. Therefore the next logical step for Prime Minister Siniora would be to get the Lebanese military into south Lebanon under whatever situation Hezbollah will agree to. It's obvious that the Lebanese government cannot allow a group of out-of-control Hezbollah fighters with the kind of weaponry they possess.
However if the Lebanese military does move into south Lebanon it might be a good time for a trip to a safer area than Beirut.
Lebanon isn't really a democratic country because Hezbollah's extremely well-armed militia acts as a serious intimidating factor. Tonight ABC news did a segment for Nightline from the Christian section of Beirut at a Starbucks. The area was untouched by bombing, a bus was running in the background, it was very clean and it looked very nice.
However the young woman they interviewed said the government will have to pay to re-build all the bridges etc. (plus the environmental damage) and that now she couldn't get the loan she wanted because of the economic uncertainty. The bank would only lend for 2-3 years or something. She said publicly people in that area support Hezbollah but privately many didn't. She herself refused to say that she didn't support Hezbollah - saying several times "she couldn't".
That's the result of very serious intimidation and it's not going to be solved any time soon.
What a silly article. Let's be honest, Lebanon is a 63 years old experiment, and it has failed at every turn. It is not even able to rule its own territory. If there is any country which ought to just pack up and go, it is probably Lebanon.
Being negative due to
US, Israel, UK and the allies can do what ever they like and want.
Others considered as terrorist
Just wait another 2 or 3 decades, China will be next super power
double standard double standard double standard double standard double standard double standard
double standard double standard
double standard double standard
No surprise, if individual group of so call "terrorist" keep on increasing.
There are many unhappy soul out there with regards to double standard.
I'm not Muslim or Jewish but I have watched, read, and listened to both sides of this conflict. I've come to the conclusion that most Muslim's are a bunch of anti-sematic, ignorant, backwards, illiterate, hate-mongering, racists. You start a war and then whine when you get your country trashed. Quit whining. Your completely asinine leaders lie about everything under the sun and then you ignorant moron's cheer for these pigs that caused the destruction to your country. You deserve an Iranian style government. Your too pathetic to handle any sort of government other than authoritarian. Your punkish Hezbollah (Party of Satan) will lead you to glory...LMAO...Right. Your dear, dear Nazrallah (I can't spell that name right so we'll just call him "the fat little pig") turned your country into rubble and you thank him...talk about Morons. Actually, Israel by destroying half your country, might have had the right idea by keeping you busy rebuilding instead of starting crap with them. When Israel wasn't around you warmongers did nothing but fight amongst yourselves. We don't believe any of the lies you spread or the trash you spew in the news either. You should thank God Israel didn't just make your country a permanent buffer zone.
anon 9.58
Kan nina bo, lu cho simi
How, after so much damage and misery has been inflicted, a person can say the things Anonymous 9:58 has said, is just unimaginable. It is the kind of hate laced garbage that the worst kinds of cowardly people spew - they shout it from their holes while making sure no one can see them. All for the same kind of pleasure sick little kids get from torturing animals.
But - the person writing that garbage is part of a large group of leeches - parasites who demand their "rights" and the benefits of a free society while they lash out and trash anyone less fortunate. All in the attempt to demonstrate to themselves they have some value.
I hope America now finally acts properly in this horror and works to restore hope rather than to confirm hopelessness. I hope fair minded, compassionate Americans will see what's happened and demand that our president and all the king's men do the right thing. Climb down from the high horses, stop spreading fear and hate while trying to help rather than continually inflicting pain.
As a purely practical matter, what does Israel do now? The attack was based on the same kind of failed intelligence the US used to invade Iraq. The result is Hezbollah is still there and is now deciding to neither disarm nor move. And the Lebanese Army says it won't move in until Hezbollah is out. Ditto any "international force" - it's not likely Norway is going to send troops to fight their way into a place to referee a civil war.
So - what does Israel do? Olmert and Prevetz want to get the troops out - they never imagined 30,000 of them there in any event. But the dilemma is, if they pull out now, what has been accomplished? If they stay, how will Israel afford it? And what more can be done to Lebanon in any event? The threat of assault has been used, the actual destruction of Lebanon's economy and infrastructure - to the extent the rest of the world will stomach it - has been accomplished and the Hezbollah are still there. Not only are they still there, they are the only ones so far - other than Syria - to talk about aid to the refugees.
Without deciding the morality of the matter or who's right and who's wrong in that sense, what happens now? The blockade is still there, troops are still in the country and Lebanese are hurting - maybe on the verge of a civil war. Israel doesn't have a bottomless pit of cash like the US does for fighting a war. And every day she keeps troops in Lebanon and away from their jobs is another hit on the Israeli economy.
Don't some people at the top of the Israeli and American governments at some point have to see we're being baited into these kinds of "wars?" The US has already spent half a trillion dollars on just the Iraq and Afghanistan misadventures. We'll spend billions more, now, on the Lebanon misadventure. Then we'll try it with Iran. Then we'll have to have a draft because not a lot of people are going to want to volunteer to spend the rest of their lives fighting in Iraq - just like not a lot of Israelis are going to want to volunteer to dedicating their lives to spending money on "smart" weapons to blow up what they consider "dumb" people.
But what??
As a purely practical matter, what does Israel do now? The attack was based on the same kind of failed intelligence the US used to invade Iraq. The result is Hezbollah is still there and is now deciding to neither disarm nor move. And the Lebanese Army says it won't move in until Hezbollah is out. Ditto any "international force" - it's not likely Norway is going to send troops to fight their way into a place to referee a civil war.
So - what does Israel do? Olmert and Prevetz want to get the troops out - they never imagined 30,000 of them there in any event. But the dilemma is, if they pull out now, what has been accomplished? If they stay, how will Israel afford it? And what more can be done to Lebanon in any event? The threat of assault has been used, the actual destruction of Lebanon's economy and infrastructure - to the extent the rest of the world will stomach it - has been accomplished and the Hezbollah are still there. Not only are they still there, they are the only ones so far - other than Syria - to talk about aid to the refugees.
Without deciding the morality of the matter or who's right and who's wrong in that sense, what happens now? The blockade is still there, troops are still in the country and Lebanese are hurting - maybe on the verge of a civil war. Israel doesn't have a bottomless pit of cash like the US does for fighting a war. And every day she keeps troops in Lebanon and away from their jobs is another hit on the Israeli economy.
Don't some people at the top of the Israeli and American governments at some point have to see we're being baited into these kinds of "wars?" The US has already spent half a trillion dollars on just the Iraq and Afghanistan misadventures. We'll spend billions more, now, on the Lebanon misadventure. Then we'll try it with Iran. Then we'll have to have a draft because not a lot of people are going to want to volunteer to spend the rest of their lives fighting in Iraq - just like not a lot of Israelis are going to want to volunteer to dedicating their lives to spending money on "smart" weapons to blow up what they consider "dumb" people.
But what??
Chris, thanks for the insight into this. I always think of St. Jude's hospital and Danny Thomas when I think of Lebanon.Shows how out of touch I am. Lol! The intimidation factor is what I am concerned about in Muslim countries. I know Lebanon has a big christian population, and I think Americans failed to recognize this and blindly supported Israel. This was a shame. I also believe that Islam is probably a beautiful religion and I have nothing against it, but the extreme element within it concerns me very much.I never agreed with the idea of going into Iraq , and voted with Bush reluctantly because of other issues. I wouldn't do it again knowing what I now know.
clare
I think Hcb is the biggest antagonist here, it's not even a person that comes here regularly and you strike down his thoughts and views. How can you call your self open minded when you bash them first then try to explain it? How does this help? How are you helping? If you don't answer can one of the people that want to share a beer with him explain him to some of us?
Why can't you see to view's and open your mind to another human's point of view's? Are you filled with that much hate? You still call me names, but your the one lookiing like a closed minded person now.
As I said, Sam - you confuse hate with disinterest. I'm not helping? Helping what? You to feel good about yourself? I don't care how you feel about yourself. You wonder why can't I open my mind "to another human's point of view's?" You announced your "point of view" as such filth that it was not any such thing - is was simply filth that you determined to spew. Go back and read the parts about what you imagined I was doing with a dying and then dead soldier. Go back and read what you wrote about women and my mother and my sister and daughter. And then tell me your "point of view" that I should open my mind to.
I'm not filled with hate - but I'm not surprised to hear you say so. It's got nothing to do with hate. It's simply as I said, I don't care who you are or what you think. Period.
HCB said...
How, after so much damage and misery has been inflicted, a person can say the things Anonymous 9:58 has said, is just unimaginable. It is the kind of hate laced garbage that the worst kinds of cowardly people spew - they shout it from their holes while making sure no one can see them. All for the same kind of pleasure sick little kids get from torturing animals.
But - the person writing that garbage is part of a large group of leeches - parasites who demand their "rights" and the benefits of a free society while they lash out and trash anyone less fortunate. All in the attempt to demonstrate to themselves they have some value.
You are filled with hate, you cover it up and say it's a view. What was said that deserved your little tyrant above? I will not respond or try to understand your views right now.
Your not helping but just keeping pace with the problem. It's like having a flash light in the dark but it's pointed where your coming from and not where your going.
It's not about you or I, it's about the world.
This is my last comment to you, Sam. This blog is not about you, about how you feel or whether you like what I say or not. You clearly have read nothing and have no idea about what you are talking. You simply say whatever comes to mind at the moment because you want to be heard. So - say your nonsense and be done with it. But don't spend time or space trying to talk to me or about me. It's of absolutely no importance - to me or to anyone else. You chose to use this forum to spew your hate-ridden filth and now you want to do something differently. Go ahead - and if anyone wants to listen to you, so be it. But I don't. And I won't. I simply refuse to be troubled by your existence or anything you may think to say.
And I don't think - in the larger picture - that my not caring to know you, to know what you think, to talk to you, to listen to you or even to know if you exist has anything whatsoever to do with Lebanon, Israel, world peace or the price of gasoline.
There is one more thing I forgot to mention, Sam: This is the post I responded to which response, you say, was full of my hate. And you wondered why I couldn't listen to the ranter's "view." I think you were the poster - it sounds exactly like you. You say MY response to that garbage was hate filled? Here: read it again and then see if you can find ANYthing helpful or unhateful in it:
Anonymous said...
I'm not Muslim or Jewish but I have watched, read, and listened to both sides of this conflict. I've come to the conclusion that most Muslim's are a bunch of anti-sematic, ignorant, backwards, illiterate, hate-mongering, racists. You start a war and then whine when you get your country trashed. Quit whining. Your completely asinine leaders lie about everything under the sun and then you ignorant moron's cheer for these pigs that caused the destruction to your country. You deserve an Iranian style government. Your too pathetic to handle any sort of government other than authoritarian. Your punkish Hezbollah (Party of Satan) will lead you to glory...LMAO...Right. Your dear, dear Nazrallah (I can't spell that name right so we'll just call him "the fat little pig") turned your country into rubble and you thank him...talk about Morons. Actually, Israel by destroying half your country, might have had the right idea by keeping you busy rebuilding instead of starting crap with them. When Israel wasn't around you warmongers did nothing but fight amongst yourselves. We don't believe any of the lies you spread or the trash you spew in the news either. You should thank God Israel didn't just make your country a permanent buffer zone.
9:58 AM
Hey HCB,
I’m 9:58 not him/her. I’ve irritated you in the past too and really don’t care that my comments get your dandruff up. I am only speaking the truths you do not wish to hear. I’m pretty sure that you are a pro Party of Satan Shiite Muslim even though you try (pathetically I might add) to disguise yourself as a concerned citizen. At the least, you are a supporter of the murdering Hezbollah. Your useless attempts to portray partial truths as the only facts are an effort in futility. You know, as well as I, Lebanon, Syria, and Iran are the root cause of this entire fiasco. Speak the truth you little coward. You hide behind innocent women and children and then blame others when the inevitable occurs. You constantly blame Israel for the pain and suffering of Lebanon’s evil deed. Give me a break. Your racist views are very evident in only showing concern about the destruction on Lebanon. I guess your kind just can’t stomach the truth in that Israel didn’t cause this. Lebanese did. No matter what fictious name you give their gang, they are Lebanese. Also, you have no idea what kind of person I am so stuff it on your illogical rationalizations. I believe God will deal with these injustices in the end and your false Prophets, and those that blindly follow, will pay eternally. Have a nice day.
The trouble with complete ignorance is its completeness - the completely ignorant person doesn't even know how ignorant he/she is. The ignorance is so complete there's just no way to talk to that person so I'll leave it to God to see what - if anything - he/she can do. Assuming he or she cares, that is.
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