Thursday, September 07, 2006

47 to 1

All the national, state and local Jewish organizations in the US have launched a $300 million fund-raising and propaganda campaign in support of the 21 Jewish civilians and 116 soldiers killed during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon (but not the 18 Israeli Arabs who were excluded from Jews-only bomb shelters). As adjuncts of the Israeli Foreign Office, not a single one of the 52 organizations which make up The Presidents of the Major Jewish Organizations in the US voiced a single public criticism of Israel's massive destruction of civilian homes, hospitals, offices, supermarkets, refugee convoys and churches and mosques, and the deliberate killing of civilians, UN peacekeepers and rescue workers with precision bombing. On the contrary, the entire Jewish lobby echoed in precise detail the Israeli lies that the Lebanese deaths were caused by the Lebanese resistance's "use of human shields," despite the total devastation of the heavily populated southern suburbs of Beirut, completely out of range of any Hezbollah rockets.
The magnitude of the Jewish Lobby's cover-up of Israel's massive military assault can be measured in great detail.
The Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) launched 5,000 missiles, five-ton bunker-buster bombs and cluster bombs as well as anti-personnel phosphorus bombs each day into Lebanon for 27 days - totaling over 135,000 missiles, bombs and artillery shells. During the last seven days of the war Israel launched 6,000 bombs and shells per day - over 42,000, for a grand total of 177,000 over a heavily populated territory the size of the smallest state in the US. In contrast, the Lebanese national resistance launched 4,000 rockets during the entire 34-day period, an average of 118 per day. The ratio was 44 to 1 - without mentioning the size differentials, the long-term killing effects of the thousands of unexploded cluster bombs (nearly 50 killed or maimed since the end of hostilities) and Israel's scorched-earth military incursion.
The Jewish lobbyists publish the number of Israel's civilian dead as 41, forgetting to mention that only 23 were Jews, the remaining 18 were members of Israel's Arab Muslim and Christian minority who constitute around 20 percent of the population. The disproportionate number of Israeli Arabs killed was a result of the Israeli government policy of providing shelters and siren warning systems to Jews and ignoring the security needs of its Arab citizens. The proportion of civilian deaths to soldiers was 41 to 116 or 26 percent of the total Israeli dead (but if we only consider Jewish Israelis and IDF members the proportion 23 to 116 or 16 percent of the Jewish dead were civilian.) Clearly the Lebanese resistance was aiming most of its fire at the invading IDF. In contrast, in Lebanon, of the 1,181 so far known to have been killed, 1088 were civilians and only 93 were fighters. In other words 92 percent of the Lebanese dead were civilians - over three times the rate of civilians killed by the Lebanese resistance and almost six times the rate of Jewish civilians killed (the only ones who count in the lobby's propaganda machine). To put it more bluntly: Over 47 Lebanese civilians were slaughtered for each Jewish Israeli civilian death. The Jewish lobby's claims of Israeli moral and military superiority in the Middle East - which is paradoxically combined with warnings that Israel's survival is at stake - has been shredded to tatters as a result of their failure to annihilate Hezbollah.
.....
The executive director of the American Jewish Committee, David A. Harris, puts to the lie the nasty bit of propaganda by US "left" Zionists who downplay the role of the Jewish Lobby in securing whole-hearted White House and Congressional support for Israel's destruction of Lebanon. In discussing US subservience to Israel, Harris stated, "No other nation has been prepared to define such an intimate relationship with Israel in all bilateral spheres - from arms sales, foreign aid and intelligence-sharing to a free-trade zone, scientific cooperation and diplomatic support. No other nation has the capacity, by dint of its size and stature, to help ensure Israel's quest for a secure and lasting peace (sic) . . . In the recent conflict with Hezbollah, once again the United States demonstrated its willingness to stand by Israel, provide vital support and withstand the pressure of many US allies who would have wished for an earlier end to the fighting even if it meant keeping Hezbollah largely intact and in place . . . Whatever the primary factor, there can be no doubt that American Jewry is an essential element of the equation (yoking the US to Israel). This is all the more reason why American Jewry need to work day in and day out to ensure that the mutually beneficial link (sic) goes from strength to strength." (Jerusalem Post, Aug. 25, 2006)
In plain English, the Jewish networks and lobbies were able to secure 98 percent support from Congress for a resolution supporting Israel's invasion of Lebanon, even as 54 percent of Democrats and 39 percent of Republicans favor a policy of neutrality as opposed to alignment with Israel. (Times-Bloomberg Poll, July 25-Aug. 1, 2006, published in the Jewish Telegraph Agency - Aug. 15, 2006) The lobby convinced, pressured and threatened the White House to prolong the Israeli terror bombing as Harris so proudly announced. The Jewish Lobby does work "day in and day out" to make sure that Israel can ethnically cleanse Palestine, drop five-ton bombs on Lebanese apartment buildings, bulldoze villages and isolate the US from even its closest allies at the expense of the US taxpayers, our democratic ideals and our sovereignty. And the American Jewish Committee has the chutzpah (arrogance) to say that it is "our mutually beneficial link." Now that is a bit of political dishonesty!

This was an extract from an article written by James Petras in Arab News on 5th Sept. 2006

50 Comments:

Blogger SnoopyTheGoon said...

If you believe the tripe in this article, you must join Petras' propaganda team, mrtez.

It is a deep disappointment to see you repeating such garbage.

4:32 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

So I will understand, Snoopy, what parts of the article are false?

6:17 PM  
Blogger mrtez said...

i am sorry snoopy but i would much more appreciate you give a counter argument to this "garbage" of official numbers and official quotes used by the propaganda machine that is Petras instead of discrediting fact.
if there is anything false, we are all open ears...

6:25 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Open ears? Am I reading this write? So post the one sided false info and then make us prove that your a prop machine.

Why not post both sides and the truth..... oh wait thats not what this site is for. Just slamming the Jews and getting turn coat Amreicans to support you and your terrorist systems.


Snoopy, HCB isn't worth responding too. He's a traitor and turn coat.

6:31 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Wow Howard..... still all alone.

I figured if the losers in this blog and the authors supported or cared about you they would at least once openly and in public acknowledge you and your site. Just as we thought and know, no one cares about you. Still a loser and coward. Have fun pussy!

Oh ya, I still haven;t gotten that call form you. You're all talk, all show no go. you're the reason we lost the war in nam, you and the cowards like you.

6:38 PM  
Blogger mrtez said...

lol sam...you make me laugh mate...instead of diverting the subject towards the "downsides" of the blog, why cant you actually construct a counter argument to this exact topic? and please mate, focus on the actual topic of the post, not about whats written in the koran or that we are all here to destroy the world. awaiting, with open ears,a well constructed argument...

6:39 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

Why are you all surprised by the Jewish lobby's efforts in the US? Aside from their false propaganda, I think Lebanese and Arabs should have a similar lobby...although they would be dubbed as terrorist cells...

7:30 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

For your amusement:

The rules of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS when it comes to the Israeli-Arab conflict:


Rule # 1: In the Middle East, it is always the Arabs that attack first, and it's always Israel who defends itself. This is called "Retaliation".


Rule # 2: The Arabs, whether Palestinians or Lebanese, are not allowed to kill Israelis. This is called "Terrorism"

Rule # 3: Israel has the right to kill Arab civilians, this is called "Self-Defense", or these days "Collateral Damage".

Rule # 4: When Israel kills too many civilians. The Western world calls for restraint. This is called the "Reaction of the International Community".

Rule # 5: Palestinians and Lebanese do not have the right to capture Israeli military, not even a limited number, not even 1 or 2. This is called "Kidnapping".

Rule # 6: Israel has the right to capture as many Palestinians as they want (Palestinians: around 10000 to date, 300 of which are children, Lebanese: 1000s to date, being held without trial). There is no limit; there is no need for proof of guilt or trial. This is called "War on Terrorism".

Rule # 7: When you say "Hezbollah", always be sure to add "supported by Syria and Iran". This is called: "Axis of Evil"

Rule # 8: When you say "Israel", never say "supported by the USA, the UK and other European countries", for people (God forbid) might believe this is not an equa conflict. This is called "Helping our Friends".

Rule # 9: When it comes to Israel, don't mention the words "occupied territories", "UN resolutions", "Geneva conventions". This could distress the audience and is called "Anti-Semitism".

Rule # 10: Israelis speak better English than Arabs. This is why we let them speak out as much as possible, so that they can explain rules 1 through 9. This is called "Neutral Journalism".

Rule # 11: If you don't agree with these rules or if you favor the Arab side over the Israeli side, you must be a very dangerous anti-Semite. You may even have to make a public apology if you express your honest opinion like Mel Gibson. This is called "Democracy".


Please learn the proper terminology and use it appropriately to maintain your job; this is called "Equal Opportunity Employment

7:31 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Interstingly, Doc, there are similar lobbies. And here's an interesting place to read about them:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/lobby.html

7:48 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

I know there is no rational conversation possible with anyone supporting the Islamic movement. There is no difference to between what the Jewish people are doing and the Islamic people. Well there is a difference; the Jewish people are only trying to control their land. Islam is trying to take over the world. The Presidents speech about what the Islamic radicals are trying to do was very eye opening. I need to fight harder, shout louder and help stop the forward momentum that has gripped the world in this new war. Islam must not be allowed to spread hate via their holy warriors and force their religion on the people of the world. Muslims don’t denounce the holy warriors because in their hearts they agree, their silence against them is all the proof we need. I would rather die than live in a Muslim controlled world, I would rather die than ever align myself with a 2nd rate religion that in modern times promotes death, hate and the destruction of everything not Islamic.

7:58 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Wow Doc, you're good at twisting any topic to suite your narrow views. Sure your not really a Rag? I'm sure you are, you just lie about it and say your a christian to get more support.

8:03 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Obviously, Mrtez, there is to be no meaningful rebuttal or contradictory argument to the topic. Lots of smoke and lots of flash. But no heat. I'm disappointed not to have heard from Snoopy - I had hoped he'd say something thoughtful. Maybe later.

However, thinking there might be another side, I went to a couple of the major Jewish fundraising sites. AIPAC confirms the 300 million dollar "emergency appeal" but, says specifically that 300 million is now the "floor." 500 million, AIPAC says, is what is needed to restore damaged infrastructure (coincidentally, I'm sure, the amount our president pledged to Lebanon) Of course, all donations to AIPAC are tax deductible.

Oh - the news on AIPAC includes the "targeted operations" in Palestine are necessitated because Hamas hasn't released the Israeli soldier it captured. So - it will be interesting to see if there are similar "targeted operations" in Lebanon. With the "International Force" there, I mean.

8:15 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

yes, i am a christian from the holy land. who the hell is supporting the islamic movement? we are talking about right and wrong, regardless of religion. HZ was wrong for kidnapping soldiers, Israel was very wrong for responding the way it did and the US is wrong for supporting Israel state terrorism and having double standards. and we (as americans) are wrong for being so ignorant and blind about the real issues and truth.

you are equally as wrong for being so racist, ignorant and close-minded. nobody wants to control you. you control yourself with your lies and bigotry. poor guy.

c'est le vrai.

8:18 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

I have a general, perhaps off-the-topic question:

If someone robs a bank, and the robber holds an innocent by-stander hostage(s) inside the bank, do the police and swat team have the green light to blow up the building? Is this proper procedure, is it encouraged and does it occur frequently? Why or why not?

9:02 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Well that is as about as stupid of a question / analogy as I can think of Doc. It has no bases or merit in regards to what has happened to Leb. The Leb’s weren’t an innocent hostage, they supported the HZ. Leb isn’t a bank, it’s a toilet bowl.
The innocent hostage supplied the robber the weapons, opened the door to the bank and said it’s okay if we get killed while your trying to rob the bank because Allah will call us martyr’s and open he gates to heaven.

Again your question is so stupid it’s actually funny. It shows you have no reason ability and have to make shit up to gain support. Just like an Arab/Rag/Muslim/illegal immigrant & whatever else you are.

9:22 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Hey better plan Doc.

Go grab a gun and rob a bank in LA please. We'll test your question on you. Make sure it's LA though, they kill first and answer questions later.

9:25 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

It depends, Doc - are you talking about pre-Bush and Gonzalez? Or do you mean now with all the insanity and fear mongering? Right now, it doesn't even need to be a bank robbery. Just hang out somewhere and an FBI agent will approach you and offer you a lot of money to join Al Queda so you can blow up the Sears Tower. When you say , "sounds good," you'll be in jail faster than you can say "dubya." Like happened in Miami.

9:35 PM  
Blogger mrtez said...

again sam you have failed to address the topic of discussion. instead you have fallen back to your usual arguments by using big words such as islamic movement, death and destruction - words you most probably never even came close to experiencing.
you throw muslims directly into a big basket of stereotypes, as if they were all one similar and wicked people, and try to make readers here believe that you know what you are talking about. be wise and please make a well constructed argument...just once

9:35 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

My best friend growing up is a tactical officer “SWAT”. SWAT is only in LA, else where they’re referred to as “tactical teams”. They’re only approved to use force if there is reason immediate need. They don’t blow buildings up, they never have but since you’re not from this country it’s easy to be confused. They blow stuff up in your land not this one.

9:44 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

By all means, blow HZ fighters up. I would support that. But,you mean to tell me a 1, 3 or 5 year old child supplied weapons to HZ? or the other innocent civilians?

where is your logic and humanity?

you are silly one my friend. you have no idea whats going on in the world.

i done reasoning with the unreasonable.

9:44 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

i was born and raised in this country.

by blow up, I mean uses force that puts the hostage at risk. idiot.

9:46 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

Yes, HCB. The Miami incident was ridiculous.

9:49 PM  
Blogger SnoopyTheGoon said...

I shall have to fisk the article thoroughly, mrtez. Probably tomorrow. Meanwhile, to my shame, I cannot find the original URL, so I may use the quote in your post.

9:57 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Mrtez - you are dealing with a person whose learning comes from bumper stickers and discussing their deeper meanings with fishing buddies while gulping beer. You need to explain "the topic" is the headline of this blogline. Otherwise, it's confusing because what curretly is swirling at the synaptic peak is "blowing things up."

I can imagine, though, not being from this country you are not used to dealing with idiots who, when challenged as to their bigotry, elect to change the subject and spout vile nonsense. We here, on the other hand, are used to it. They are known as "the lunatic fringe."

You should also understand the fear of the "lunatic fringe" that they may be identified as latent homosexuals. To avoid detection, they try to talk like they think real men talk. But it's always easy to identify them - they really are not men, they really never make sense and they really never shut up. Rather, they just keep spouting vile words inappropriately. Yappy little dogs peeing on their own legs and making a stink wherever they go.

One good thing, though - they know who they are. And they always get angry and defensive when they are pointed out. Unfortunately, they also always get even more vile. But, they wear out after a little while.

9:58 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

mrtez you say that I am certain things. Oh well

Howard, is Bush to be blamed for everything? In your world yes he is. You lose your job becasue you suck at it, blame Bush. you're wife gets gang raped by five black men and blame Bush. You're kids get run over by a drug runner and killed, blame Bush. The pope died, how is Bush to blame?

9:59 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Sorry snoopy - the juxtaposition is unfortunate. It is not you to whom I alluded.

10:00 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Gee Howard, it's been a month and I'm still going. Unlike your wife I'm not worn out.

10:00 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Oh my Howard got his dictionary out and wants to look like a big fellow. If your so smart why are you in a dummy job Howie? One that relies on so little training and skill?

Howard your so cool, a nan survivor by killing his own men. You became a VC spy and allowed the killing of your so called friends. No your a terrorist sympathizer, your a wana be rag head.

10:08 PM  
Blogger Anon said...

This is shocking and I don’t doubt that it is true. There will always be people who are polarised, blinkered, naïve and ignorant...no matter which side of the argument they’re on.

It is a shame that a few of these archetypes hold positions of influence in one of the most powerful nations of current times.

It is so easy to muster one sided ‘absolute’ opinion given incomplete facts, one side of a story, a bit of spin and a dash of misunderstanding (fear can ‘helpfully’ turn that into hatred).

David Lynch has recently been awarded the Golden Lion Life-time Achievement Award at the Venice Film Festival; to quote from something he directed “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear”. Couple that with the title of the Spanish film that Cruise ripped off for Vanilla Sky (abres los ojos)...and we could all be onto something...

10:33 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

QED

11:36 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

All of the unbelievable things that have happened in the past few years - the latest being Lebanon - are going to be resolved. As this article describes, congress was heavily lobbied and went along with the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld nonsense and lies. The continuation of the lie based programs is heavily dependent on the massive propaganda effort as described - people were constantly fed fear and revenge and congress went along with Bush. But it's not so easy any more.

Take a look at the MSNBC lead article tonight - Bush wants his military courts for "terrorists" and his parrots in congress want to "protect" the country by limiting access to evidence by defendants. The Army Judge Advocate says it will violate treaties.

WASHINGTON - The Pentagon’s top uniformed lawyers took issue Thursday with a key part of a White House plan to prosecute terrorism detainees, telling Congress that limiting the suspects’ access to evidence could violate treaty obligations.

Pretty soon - Congress is going to tell Bush, "Shut Up." And we will be on our way back to having the United States of America as it was intended and used to be.

11:50 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Isn't it great that all you guys can do is complain and hope that it changes..... It won't, there aren't enough of you lonies to make a difference. Most of us are not happy that Iraq is what it is but were going to fight the fight. The Repub's will stay in strength and rule the country for a long time. Lets all talk in 07 an see if the Dems have gained anything. LONG LIVE THE REPUBLIC IN WHICH WE LIVE. Go Bush, Go America. He is my leader and I'm so proud to follow him.

11:56 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

QEDx2

11:59 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Oh and Howard, the country you loved is gone. The mess that the Dems got us into in the 60's & 70's is past. It took a strong and wonderful president to cure our country and help make it what it is today. Clinton got to ride the coat tails of the greatest president since Abe. Bush Jr is doing a pretty good job, a few points need to be polished but all in all he's a Great Man.

12:01 AM  
Blogger Sam said...

All you and others can do is look and live with it. Thats the best part!!!!!!

12:04 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

QEDx3

12:07 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

Presidents - 60's and 70's

Richard Milhous Nixon, 1969-1974
Gerald Rudolph Ford, 1974-1977

Sam - why not give it a rest? Why not try being a person instead of whatever it is you are trying to be? You make no sense, you seem to be intent on proving you are an uneducated, foolish, hate spewing bigot. Why? Why do you do that? It can't possibly be as pleasant as participating in a discussion to be always so unrelentingly foul. Why do you have to say the things you do to women? It can't possibly make you feel good to be sitting behind a computer screen saying such vile, completely stupid things.

Why not simply stop and try talking? It doesn't mean find a web site or a blog to collect good ideas like you proposed before. Just be polite and cool the crap.

Not hard and it's a lot nicer. You don't have to say a thing, you don't have to apologize and you don't have to announce a new leaf. Just start being nicer.

12:28 AM  
Blogger mrtez said...

i am disappointed sam, truly disappointed...i really thought you had an insight to offer me and was really looking forward to reading it. turns out i was mistaken...

12:49 AM  
Blogger Doc said...

ya mrtez,

you are too nice. i have been convinced for a while that sam is deliberately talking like that to see what reactions we provide him. he doesnt care about contributing meaningfully to dialogue, and i personally dont think he can. poor soul.

even the raciest, uglist, and foulist bigots have more reason and logic than him.

he's too obnoxious and foul to be taken seriously.

1:00 AM  
Blogger clare said...

It is sad that 9/11 really did polarize people against Muslims. A popular restaurant went out of business here even though they flew the American flag and had a sign that said "God bless the USA". I could really be self righteous against these people but if I were to be completely honest it affected me too, and I have always believed myself to be an open person.I am catholic but I had an old prayer in an antique frame hanging on my bedroom wall that began " I pray the prayer that the easterns do, may the peace of Allah abide with you..." I can't remember all of it, but after 9/11 I tossed it in the trash, antique frame and all. I just couldn't see trying to identify myself with Islam in any way when that much hatred exploded in this country stemming from fundamentalist Islamic terrorists. I'm not saying I was right, it was my gut reaction and I have a feeling I was not alone. And then there seemed to be no condemnation from any significant Islamic leaders at least not that I heard here. Predujice is wrong, but we are all guilty of it in some way I believe. I now wish I had the old prayer back.....

3:13 AM  
Blogger SnoopyTheGoon said...

Well, whoever is interested in my take of this article, here it is:

http://simplyjews.blogspot.com/2006/09/more-steam-professor.html

Unfortunately, I did not have the staying power to deal with it in its entirety, but what I had should suffice.

Cheers all.

2:49 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

I read it, Snoopy. The whole thing.

Near the beginning, you set the tone of your rebuttal with your rhetorical question in response to "Petras' war against the Jewish lobby." You ask a series of rhetorical questions beginning with the one that grates on me most: "Is the Jewish lobby any different than oil lobby, Evangelist lobby, Cuban lobby etc.?"

That question is favored by those who consider politics a "contact sport" played for their entertainment. Let's assume the lobby is NOT any different than those you list (although I think there are very substantial differences). So what? "Everyone else does the same kind of chicanery and, therefore ...?" One big difference that deserves mention, though, is the fact AIPAC announces generally that without it, there would be no Israel. Not in those words, of course, but it makes the point that without America and American Jewry, the survival of Israel is questionable. That's quite different from, for example, the "Cuban Lobby" you mention.

You next take on Petras' mention of the $300 million fund raising attempt. In fact, the 300 million is a "floor" - the goal is no less than 500 million with the counting still going on as to how much really will be needed. This, of course, is in addition to the money the US gives. And, of course, it is tax deductible - a double dip, if you will. And, I'll refer you to Solomon's post - I think you and he are of similar persuasions - in which he argues Lebanon needs no aid because it has 6 billion dollars in gold. Given that argument and your rhetorical questions - I wonder if you and he wouldn't agree Israel has no need for aid. Surely it has at least six billion dollars worth of airplanes, ships and missiles.

You began to lose me when you responded to the "libelous" remark about not permitting the 18 Israeli Arabs in the shelters. But you say, in response, your own slander: "... one simply does not argue with a person for whom undisguised libel is a tool of trade."

That comment would land you in court in the United States. It's defamatory per se.

The trouble with you and so many other Israelis is that you simply cannot accept any criticism at all. You worry so much you even suggest Jewish fund raising is "anathema" but all other fund raising is fine. Is it wrong for me - a United States Tax Paying, veteran, voting citizen to criticize the tax deductibility of the price of your "Ultimate Mission to Israel" to see, among other things, the "trial" of a real "Hamas terrorist?" After which we will retire to our five star hotel to dine on "genuine" middle eastern fare? Tomorrow we'll take a jeep ride through the Golan Heights - thanks again to the US taxpayer. I've got no problem with Jews sending money to Israel for defense, for rebuilding or for buying pizzas to send to the troops invading Lebanon. But I don't want to be REQUIRED to contribute through the tax deductibility of your "required donation" to take the tour.

I think George Bush is a bloodthirsty fool. I think he and Olmert likely join with Cheney and Rumsfeld and Prevetz in video linked circle jerks while they watch the videos of "smart" munitions blowing up stuff. But I also think there will be investigations - there are some right now. America does things it later feels badly about and tries to make it right. That's one reason we're spending so much in blood and treasure in Iraq.

But Israel does awful things and denies they are awful while demanding everyone understand they were necessary. Israel assumes the lives of Israelis are far more valuable than the lives of the subhumans on the other side of the fence. To heap insult on that insult, Israel demands the rest of the world agree and join with it in condemning and then killing the people on the other side of its fence.

Israel has a right to defend itself. But not the way it has chosen. While you rhetorically wonder if Israeli lobbies are any different from other lobbies so you can make your point that what Israel does is acceptable, draw another comparison. Compare the "rain" of rockets you mention to the world trade center attack. Then compare the Israeli response to the American response. What America has done by invading Iraq is wrong. But, Israel destroyed Lebanon's infrastructure and economy on the idea Lebanon permitted Hezbollah. Would it not have been appropriate for America to have shut down Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Iran? While making a lake of Iraq?

I realize Olmert and Prevetz would salivate over that idea. Fortunately, cooler heads prevail here.

You have not, as I imagine you recognize, persuaded me the article is false in any regard.

I encourage you to read and respond to the new topic above concerning the use of cluster munitions.

4:44 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

And a question I cannot resist asking, Snoopy? What do you suppose would happen to the "contributions" sought by AIPAC and others if they were not tax deductible? In other words, are American Jews so convinced of the need and righteousness of the cause that they would simply GIVE the money without tax advantage? If so, why not forgo the deduction? If not - well, I'll let you draw your own conclusion.

5:07 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

For EVERYone who is interested in some other thinkers' ideas in this area, I urge you to read this article in Haaretz:

Rethinking Jewish American deterrence

By Jason Gitlin

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/760249.html

5:17 PM  
Blogger SnoopyTheGoon said...

"I read it, Snoopy. The whole thing."

Thank you.

"Near the beginning, you set the tone of your rebuttal with your rhetorical question in response to "Petras' war against the Jewish lobby." You ask a series of rhetorical questions beginning with the one that grates on me most: "Is the Jewish lobby any different than oil lobby, Evangelist lobby, Cuban lobby etc.?"

"That question is favored by those who consider politics a "contact sport" played for their entertainment. Let's assume the lobby is NOT any different than those you list (although I think there are very substantial differences). So what? "Everyone else does the same kind of chicanery and, therefore ...?" One big difference that deserves mention, though, is the fact AIPAC announces generally that without it, there would be no Israel. Not in those words, of course, but it makes the point that without America and American Jewry, the survival of Israel is questionable. That's quite different from, for example, the "Cuban Lobby" you mention."

This is a prime example of verbal chickanery, HCB. It is you who say that "Everyone else does the same kind of chicanery",not me. You should not put your words in other people mouths. Same with AIPAC - "Not in those words, of course..." Either they say it or not. And even if they do - where is the crime? I think that any lobby, as long as it does not break the law, has a legitimate business to care about the interests of whatever it cares about. You, obviously, do not and consider it chicanery. So what? Change the law.

"You next take on Petras' mention of the $300 million fund raising attempt. In fact, the 300 million is a "floor" - the goal is no less than 500 million with the counting still going on as to how much really will be needed. This, of course, is in addition to the money the US gives. And, of course, it is tax deductible - a double dip, if you will."

So?

"And, I'll refer you to Solomon's post - I think you and he are of similar persuasions - in which he argues Lebanon needs no aid because it has 6 billion dollars in gold. Given that argument and your rhetorical questions - I wonder if you and he wouldn't agree Israel has no need for aid. Surely it has at least six billion dollars worth of airplanes, ships and missiles."

Your manner of argument is quite strange - refering me to somebody who, according to you, is of the same mind as I am and then arguing with him. Do better, please. Or go argue with him.

"You began to lose me when you responded to the "libelous" remark about not permitting the 18 Israeli Arabs in the shelters."

I stated that the remark "(but not the 18 Israeli Arabs who were excluded from Jews-only bomb shelters)" is libelous. If you think that it isn't - show me a "Jews only" shelter in Israel, please.

"But you say, in response, your own slander: "... one simply does not argue with a person for whom undisguised libel is a tool of trade." That comment would land you in court in the United States. It's defamatory per se."

Oh my, oh my - I claimed that Petras made a libelous statement. I stand by this - what now?

"The trouble with you and so many other Israelis is that you simply cannot accept any criticism at all. You worry so much you even suggest Jewish fund raising is "anathema" but all other fund raising is fine."

You obviously consider it so, seeing as how much attention you pay to it.

"Is it wrong for me - a United States Tax Paying, veteran, voting citizen to criticize the tax deductibility of the price of your "Ultimate Mission to Israel" to see, among other things, the "trial" of a real "Hamas terrorist?" After which we will retire to our five star hotel to dine on "genuine" middle eastern fare? Tomorrow we'll take a jeep ride through the Golan Heights - thanks again to the US taxpayer. I've got no problem with Jews sending money to Israel for defense, for rebuilding or for buying pizzas to send to the troops invading Lebanon. But I don't want to be REQUIRED to contribute through the tax deductibility of your "required donation" to take the tour."

It seems that the real issue for you is the tax deductibility. Change the law. Re the "Ultimate Mission to Israel" - I have written a post on the subject - I did not like it too much. Now what?

"But Israel does awful things and denies they are awful while demanding everyone understand they were necessary. Israel assumes the lives of Israelis are far more valuable than the lives of the subhumans on the other side of the fence. To heap insult on that insult, Israel demands the rest of the world agree and join with it in condemning and then killing the people on the other side of its fence."

Do you think anyone should respond to this set of empty slogans? Again putting words and opinions in someone else's mouths and brains? You seem to excel in this, HCB.

"Israel has a right to defend itself. But not the way it has chosen."

Thanks for so gracefully permitting us to defend ourselves.

"While you rhetorically wonder if Israeli lobbies are any different from other lobbies so you can make your point that what Israel does is acceptable, draw another comparison. "

Another case of employing some elliptic logic, HCB? I am getting tired - how does the second part of the sentence follow the first, and where did I say this second part? You must be really desperate by now.

"Compare the "rain" of rockets you mention to the world trade center attack. Then compare the Israeli response to the American response. What America has done by invading Iraq is wrong. But, Israel destroyed Lebanon's infrastructure and economy on the idea Lebanon permitted Hezbollah. Would it not have been appropriate for America to have shut down Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Iran? While making a lake of Iraq?"

Yes, HCB - the above paragraph makes a lot of sense. Could you, please elaborate (no, actually do not bother - I am getting tired of you style by now).

"You have not, as I imagine you recognize, persuaded me the article is false in any regard."

I have addressed a part of the Petras' article point by point. You have done your best to derail the discussion and to move it to the height of 80,000 feet, where you feel better, obviously. Re persuading somebody - I am not that naive to think myself able to persuade people who's mind is made up. I am afraid this is your case, unfortunately.

"I encourage you to read and respond to the new topic above concerning the use of cluster munitions."

I do not approve the use of cluster munition in populated areas. Neither do I approve the use of Katyushas stuffed with ball bearings, by the way. What else?

7:04 PM  
Blogger SnoopyTheGoon said...

"What do you suppose would happen to the "contributions" sought by AIPAC and others if they were not tax deductible? "

I think that the donations will be reduced in size. I also think that we should survive. We have survived till 1967 without any US aid, we'll continue to survive if it stops.

7:07 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Well, Snoopy - I tried. But your sense of "argument" is to simply belittle, snipe and conclude. I really don't understand you - especially with comments like "You have done your best to derail the discussion and to move it to the height of 80,000 feet, where you feel better, obviously." But, then, it seems the comment was not meant to be understood so much as to simply yell.

As to, "Do you think anyone should respond to this set of empty slogans? Again putting words and opinions in someone else's mouths and brains? You seem to excel in this, HCB." It's not important to me that anyone respond. I was simply responding to your post - as I thought you had invited.

But - you make my point. No criticism is acceptable and no hyperbole too excessive when it comes to "defending" Israel verbally. And no weapon or extent of destruction is excessive when Israel is "defending" itself.

All stemming from one of the two yiddish words I love so much: Kvetch

(the other, you might have imagined, is "Chutzpah")

By the way - of COURSE the ball bearings were made to do nothing but kill people. That's why they are at the end of a rocket aimed at people. Much like ONE of the purposes of a cluster bomb is to reduce people to hamburger. The other purpose, of course, is to deny access to the bombed area for a very long time until someone removes all the unexploded bomblets.

And, of course, there could be some discussion of the situations in which the rockets "rained" down on Israel while Israel restrained itself to the use of "smart" munitions and risked its soldiers lives in warning people to get out of their homes before they were killed. Even assuming two thousand fifty pound rockets with ball bearings, there seems a difference when compared to some thousands of 500 and 1000 pound bombs, more thousands of 500 and 1000 pound cluster bombs, many more thousands of artillery cluster munitions, tank fire and machine guns.

But do not despair - the international community will foot the bill to repair what Israel has done, to remove the "dud" bomblets, to clean the spilled oil, to rebuild the destroyed infrastructure, to rehouse the displaced people and to do whatever else seems humane in the path of such wanton destruction. It won't cost Israel anything because, obviously, Israel is broke and wouldn't give anything even if it hadn't spent so much on causing the destruction.

Kvetch. A perfect word.

7:30 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

From the AIPAC site - "Donate"

"For more than half a century, AIPAC has worked to help make Israel more secure by ensuring that American support for Israel is strong. It is only through your support, and the support of members like you, that AIPAC can remain effective."

I think you might want to reconsider this comment when you cool off a little. It certainly will not make you very popular with AIPAC. I can imagine them asking you from where you suppose the money will come to buy the bombs and airplanes if your prideful comment affects legislators or donors.

"I think that the donations will be reduced in size. I also think that we should survive. We have survived till 1967 without any US aid, we'll continue to survive if it stops."

However, along those lines, there is an interesting Haaretz article on how the younger American Jews are starting to question what goes on in Israel and how Israel handles itself in the "International Community."

7:41 PM  
Blogger SnoopyTheGoon said...

"Well, Snoopy - I tried."

You should try better, obviously. Again - I have addressed professor's article point by point. There is a hint in that statement.

So let's agree to disagree.

12:58 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

ok

3:10 AM  

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