Wednesday, September 13, 2006

IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon

This is another damning article regarding the controversial use of cluster bombs and phosphorous munitions by the IDF. Apparently over 1 million cluster bombs were fired towards Lebanon, with the majority being launched at the end of the war. It is such actions which make the IDF a reckless force despised by all Lebanese. Even the IDF head of the rocket unit believes such actions are "insane and monstrous".
In the meantime, the IDF is already working on collecting money and hiring lawyers since they are expecting a wave of war crime trials for actions commited in the war on Lebanon.

By Meron Rappaport
"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war. Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. According to their claims, the vast majority of said explosive ordinance was fired in the final 10 days of the war.
The rocket unit commander stated that Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) platforms were heavily used in spite of the fact that they were known to be highly inaccurate. MLRS is a track or tire carried mobile rocket launching platform, capable of firing a very high volume of mostly unguided munitions. The basic rocket fired by the platform is unguided and imprecise, with a range of about 32 kilometers. The rockets are designed to burst into sub-munitions at a planned altitude in order to blanket enemy army and personnel on the ground with smaller explosive rounds. The use of such weaponry is controversial mainly due to its inaccuracy and ability to wreak great havoc against indeterminate targets over large areas of territory, with a margin of error of as much as 1,200 meters from the intended target to the area hit.
The cluster rounds which don't detonate on impact, believed by the United Nations to be around 40% of those fired by the IDF in Lebanon, remain on the ground as unexploded munitions, effectively littering the landscape with thousands of land mines which will continue to claim victims long after the war has ended. Because of their high level of failure to detonate, it is believed that there are around 500,000 unexploded munitions on the ground in Lebanon. To date 12 Lebanese civilians have been killed by these mines since the end of the war.
According to the commander, in order to compensate for the inaccuracy of the rockets and the inability to strike individual targets precisely, units would "flood" the battlefield with munitions, accounting for the littered and explosive landscape of post-war Lebanon. When his reserve duty came to a close, the commander in question sent a letter to Defense Minister Amir Peretz outlining the use of cluster munitions, a letter which has remained unanswered.
'Excessive injury and unnecessary suffering'It has come to light that IDF soldiers fired phosphorous rounds in order to cause fires in Lebanon. An artillery commander has admitted to seeing trucks loaded with phosphorous rounds on their way to artillery crews in the north of Israel. A direct hit from a phosphorous shell typically causes severe burns and a slow, painful death. International law forbids the use of weapons that cause "excessive injury and unnecessary suffering", and many experts are of the opinion that phosphorous rounds fall directly in that category.
The International Red Cross has determined that international law forbids the use of phosphorous and other types of flammable rounds against personnel, both civilian and military.

IDF: No violation of international law
In response, the IDF Spokesman's Office stated that "International law does not include a sweeping prohibition of the use of cluster bombs. The convention on conventional weaponry does not declare a prohibition on [phosphorous weapons], rather, on principles regulating the use of such weapons. "For understandable operational reasons, the IDF does not respond to [accounts of] details of weaponry in its possession. "The IDF makes use only of methods and weaponry which are permissible under international law. Artillery fire in general, including MLRS fire, were used in response solely to firing on the state of Israel."The Defense Minister's office said it had not received messages regarding cluster bomb fire.


Blogger HCB said...

As in another post a couple of articles earlier, Mr Wrath - you have your proof here that Israel indeed could have killed every living thing. It appears to have been well on the way to that goal even after the cease fire had been agreed to but had to be formalized by the Knesset. That charade took several days to give the killers more time to do their work.

I recall you and others talking loudly about how the Hezbollah rockets are unguided warheads filled with ball bearings. Especially because they were unguided, you and others argued they should not be launched in the direction of residential areas. Because they were, you and others concluded, they clearly were weapons intended only to terrorize.

Israel used a million of them. Only Israel's weapons were many times more effective at shredding human flesh than the puny weapons used by Hezbollah.

Read the article, Mr Wrath and you others who have been so vocal about Hezbollah's "terrorist" weapons and ways. This is terrorism on an unimaginable scale. Israel and the US prefer to call it "war" but it should not be so dignified. It is murder and terrorism on a scale that should embarrass any country hoping to be considered "civilized." I return to my description of the IDF and the IAF as the "Pigs of War."

1:21 PM  
Blogger chk said...

Wait a moment...

IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon


Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets

Thus the title is totally incorrect (cluster bomb <> bomblet). Is that difference intentional?


4:23 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

There's a point there somewhere - is it that "only" 1800 of them were used? Of course there were not a million "bombs" dropped - they each weigh about 750 pounds. I don't know how many rockets were used but I really don't see the difference. As Mr Wrath said in an earlier post, had it not been for the international community, Israel could and would have killed every living thing.

In any event - what is your point?

4:42 PM  
Blogger chk said...

The point is that the title line is wrong. It is irrelevant that 1800 will kill a lot of innocents, but in this context it is relevant that this is a cheap effect that reflects badly on the writer and his impartiality (I hope that's the correct translation for not being neutral).

I agree with you that 1800 are 1800 too many.


5:53 PM  
Blogger chk said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5:54 PM  
Blogger chk said...

sorry, I meant "for being neutral", delete the "not"...

A wrong title line makes the whole article appear non-neutral, which is what I mean. "Biased" maybe is the correct word.


5:57 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

I suppose so - but I already am VERY biased. And, for the life of me, I cannot imagine how I would go about writing a "neutral" article about the use of cluster bombs in the way they were used - whether it was a thousand or a million. But, then, I'm not Israeli. Perhaps there is a way to write simply and "neutrally" about the matter. I guess it would be "... and the bombs are designed to effect extensive lacerations which causes extensive bleeding which, combined with the trauma induced by the shock of being hit by shrapnel and the shock of the explosiong, interferes with the central nervous and circulatory systems leading, ultimately, to the expiration of the human involved." That, of course, is more "neutral" than, "the bomblets shred people into hamburger. As they are designed to do."

However - you're right and I have duly noted that it should be 1,800 instead of a million. Does that include the aircraft delivered cluster bombs? Or is the 1800 only the rocket delivered bombs?

6:29 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

So HZ and Leb did nothing wrong today and in the years past. thats the jist of it correct? Israel is 100% in the wrong and has been the casue of every peopblem?

Am I understanding this correctly?

8:07 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Never mind answering, the answer would be a crock anyway.

I'll just post my feelings and move to the next lie being stated on this site.

New title suggestion for this site:

Beirut Biased & or
“HZPM” [HZ Propaganda Machine]

Just my suggestion as always, oh and Howard don’t even respond. Just ignore me, I’m done with you.

8:23 PM  
Blogger M2Timechange said...

In retrospect, 5 years after the tragedy of 9/11 nothing has changed. The thirst for blood and the cycle of violence continues. People in America suffered tremendously on September 11, but still there is not an ounce of compassion for those who are at the receiving end of American made bombs in the Middle East everyday. Humans have achieved great technological advancements in the past 2000 years, but deep inside we are still the barbaric, violent cavemen we have always been.

9:03 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

Not one single country or group is innocent.

With that being said, I do believe the country of Leb was a victim, as was Northern Israeli civilians.

HZ were NOT victims, neither were the IDF and Israeli govt. (Each brought on to themselves).

But who cares?

There is not even one reason or statement that can justify the military objectives and use of force by the IDF. Regardless of what HZ did, it absolutely does not justify their criminal military strategy against the whole nation, its economy and its civilians.

Nobody is supporting HZ--in fact, to the contrary--however that does not mean Israel should get a free pass.

9:04 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

m2time--i personally believe if leaders were female (again, i am speaking from a biased point of view), then approach and solution to problems would be completely different. Or is this human nature, regardless of gender?

Violent tendecies never produce fruitful outcomes.

9:07 PM  
Blogger M2Timechange said...

doc, I will nominate you to be the next historical president of Lebanon.

9:12 PM  
Blogger mrtez said...

sam you always playing the little trick of "anti-semitism"? if any one says "jew" you directly condemn him of being "anti-semite"? ie, the second i bring up an article against Israel, you brand this site as being pro-hezb? so the haaretz is pro-hezb according to you?
All actions done by either Israel or Hizb are wrong. But I have to be rather frank with you, the Hizb doesnt have anything close to the munitions of the IDF, and using cluster munitions all over south Lebanon is, as an officer in the IDF states, "monstrous". if i recall, Israel stated that they were targeting the Hizb during the war, correct? how is 1 million innacurate bomblets targeting a specific group in open terrain and civilian areas? i think this is criminal and deserves to be dealt with at an international level so that it never happens again, ever.
but i should remain hush hush because i might be called anti-semite even though i am one last i checked...

9:13 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

What a joke, ya this conversation is helping the world.

When are the Blog Masters going to write about the ship that landed in Leb yesterday? Oh ya it won't appear in a blog because it shows that the USA is trying to help. This site only promotes anti American / Israeli issues and state how great the HZ is and the world should fight like them.

Here’s a simple analogy of how we see Lebanon.

Lebanon is like the beggar on the side of the road. His sign says, “Homeless, will work for food”. So a nice person goes and buys some food for the hungry panhandler on the side of the road. When the nice person says here ya go I hope this helps, the beggar looks at the person and says, “Keep your food I want the cash”.

Why is this, because the food is a show of pity in the beggars mind. Plus the money can go for the next fix which for the Lebanese people is more arms for the HZ.

Not one thanks for our money or food, Bash Bush for everything even though he has to approve the cash and food.

Two faced ingrates and hypocrites are what the people in the Islamic Middle East are.

9:22 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

So in your way of thinking Al Qaeda is lesser armed than the Americans……… How is that train of thought helpful mrtez? Justifying your freedom fighters reasons makes you guys pro HZ and agree with a terrorist state.

They have to target all people in the south of Leb, they clearly stated that the area needed to be evacuated because the HZ was operating within civilian areas and being protected by the very same civilians.

9:32 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

If Bush didnt approve the cash and food, then he'd look bad, incl his administration. He HAS to approve it, not because he is genuiely concerned about Lebanese or welfare of civilans in the middle east. He gives Lebanese $1 and Israel $200 PLUS arms to kill Lebanese.

Why cant you understand, we are not talking about groups we are talking about actions of those groups. Nobody denied the US provided aid. But, be careful:

You shake in one hand, and the other hits you from behind.

Bush, his admin and policies are the two faced hypocrites.

9:37 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

So in your way of thinking Al Qaeda is lesser armed than the Americans……… So in your mind and world they were justified in the attacks of the World Trade Center and our civilians. Or maybe the Embassies in Africa or Sryia are deemed okay. Oh wait we Americans asked for this all beacsue we desire to live our lives free and our very existance is a threat to thier way of life.

9:41 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

"They have to target all people in the south of Leb, they clearly stated that the area needed to be evacuated because the HZ was operating within civilian areas and being protected by the very same civilians. "

Oh, its so easy to evacuate the entire southern section of a country! And, then bomb every road, bridge and gas station that makes it very EASY to evacuate. Even bomb the Red cross ambulances and convoys leaving the area.

Sure, the IDF was REALLY concerned about the welfare of innocent civilians! Sure.

9:42 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Doc don't respond to me please, your view is so biased it's not even funny. This is a converstaion soley witt mrtez. Not towards any of you losers.

Thank you for pissing off.


9:43 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

Who's talking to you?

9:47 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

al biased

9:48 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Mrtez - when that idiot child says "we" he is trying desperately to find somebody - ANYbody - who will acknowledge and, possibly, agree with him. He has been identified correctly as a high school student of 16 or 17 years with emotional problems.

I can well appreciate Lebanon's anger with Israel and the United States. I can well appreciate, as well, Israel's anger with Hezbollah. However, a large part of the problem has been generalities - Americans speak of "Muslims" and "arabs" and "Islamic" and "terrorists" - as if everyone in any "Muslim" or "Islamic" organization is a terrorist or agrees with them. And, of course, Americans tend to imagine Hezbollah and Hamas and AlQueda are some kind of homogeneous group who together have declared war on the US.

Likewise, I think many in the mideast think all "Americans" are warmaking infidels bent on their destruction and the theft of their resources.

Neither premise is true, of course.

With that introduction, I ask that you not think "we" in the post by "sam" about how "we" feel means any one other than the idiot child making the noise.

9:52 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Coward you confuse me, if my post means nothing to you or anyone why do you continue to respond to everything I say.

I thought you and your boyfriends as well as the other followers were playing nicely in a private room? To boring for ya in your little love blog huh, to funny.

Please join a few others and stop responding, reacting or replying to my posts. If I mean nothing then this should be easy. If I represent no one in America than why worry, why respond? So again please follow through with your word just once and please ignore me, I know this will be very difficult for you being so weak in all but try. Hopefully you can be a man just once and live up to your word.

10:03 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

That was not a response to you, child. That's another thing you need to learn - comprehension when you read something. That was a note to Mrtez ABOUT you - the idiot child - not TO you.

Get it straight, idiot child - when I speak to you, it will be apparent from the contezt. You may then appropriately respond and I will decide the value of your response. In the meantime, I will address your idiocies to whom and when it pleases me - including to you.

You've come to this place to be as rude as you can possibly be, to show you have neither education nor culture, to demonstrate conclusively you are a misogynist who is completely out of place anywhere other than the rest room of a dumpy bar and that all you want to do is draw attention to yourself in the failed effort to feel you have some value.

Now a suggestion for you - if you don't like what I have to say about you, leave. Don't read my posts. Because, believe this you idiotic little child - you will see my rebuttal to any filth you post that I consider inappropriate or unamerican. You are an embarrassment and I do not intend the good people on this site to believe you are anything else. I certainly do not want them to imagine you reinforce the already lousy opinion of Americans in the Middle East which has been caused by allowing idiots like you to run their mouths and make decisions.

10:18 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

So mrtez, I was hoping for a little more insight into your way of thinking. you used the comparison, I'm confused at your true view point. Is the terrorism that HZ justifiable, if so then so is Al Qaeda and what they have done. People here say that the HZ has done nothing wrong? What is your stance on this?

10:20 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Coward, not even 1 minute and you fold again. To bad, I was hoping you could actually be a man just once. A man of your word.

You make me laugh, to funny.

10:27 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

And while I am still here this afternoon, I will remind you that you have wholly ignored Mrtez', mine and other's requests that you present a cogent statement of your position with a lucid basis for whatever that position is. You ignore it in favor of stating filth and sarcastically presenting what you consider to be a question. Your "question" is completely improper with your intentionally incorrect suggestions of what people here have said.

You have no command of the english language, you do not understan conversation and you clearly have not the beginnings of a grasp of logic.

10:27 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

So let me get this right, the weasel gets his hat handed to him in another thread and no longer posts there so he can come to this one, change the subject, and still act as sophomoric as before?

Wow, I'm really surprised.

I don't believe I read anything about anyone believing that the al Qaeda attack on the U.S. was justified; it most certainly was not. However, automatically equating al Qeada to Hezbollah shows a complete lack of understanding of what is being discussed. Moreover, you have blasted all Arabs on multiple occasions, further demonstrating your arrogance and ignorance.

How about you for once answer a question that is posed to you that requires you to engage in some actual thinking. I am still waiting to hear about what profound sacrifices or contributions you have made for and to this nation. What have you ever done to earn the freedom that you have? I am also really wanting to hear how it is that other people "make" you feel hatred; how do you rationalize that you are not responsible for your own feelings and actions? Frankly, from what I have seen of your posts, you are just one more ignorant little chimp who feels entitled to say and do whatever he wants simply because you are so much better than everyone else.

And before you call anyone else a coward again, ask yourself why it is that you need to hide behind anonymity in order to engage in this conversation. You are the coward.

I am sure you will respond either with bile, insults, and statements about children (you do seem fascinated in a very unhealthy way), or else you will tell me to stop responding to you because you don't have the courage to take responsibility for yourself, let alone the intelligence to do so. You can keep spinning it any way you would like, but as long as I see your ignorant posts, I will challenge you, if for no other reason than to make you understand that no one is beyond accountability.

10:33 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Guys just once do as you say, I didn't respond to the other post for my reasons and not becasue of you clowns. Funny you say Ricky I had my hat handed to me. I see why the Dems get so confused and thin theycan actually change something.

The questions was for mrtez, he can choose to answer but aren't you guys doing the same thing that America has been guilty of, not letting the Muslims or Arabs think or speak for themselves?

Funny guys, keep responding to me in length. This bolg is so about me know, that sucks too.

10:41 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Now not know.....

Oh ya Neil & Bob, have either one of you ever followed through with your word. Of didn't your mommies and daddies teach you what that means. I guess not, to busy rapping your sisters and brothers to teach you how to follow through with your word.

10:51 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

I'll check back later mrtez or you can e-mail me the answer too. Either way is okay with me.

Take care kids, don't have to much fun while I'm working.

10:52 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

Answer the questions, Sammy. Quit hiding that superior intellect that you possess and let us see some actual substance.

"For my reasons?" Yeah, you had nothing to say. Answer my questions Sammy, and quit hiding behind the internet to share your hate. Come on, Coward.

10:53 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Sam's word at 8:23 in this thread:

Just my suggestion as always, oh and Howard don’t even respond. Just ignore me, I’m done with you.

8:23 PM

You're done with me. I'm just starting with you. You have repeatedly posted trash and filth when asked to stop. You had a tantrum and decided to post what you described as trash repeatedly in an attempt, as you described it, "to close this blog." You will now find every word you have to say scrutinized and, if it pleases or interests me, I will criticize it. You can be certain that when you start dribbling from the mouth with your racist nonsense, you will be pointed out for the complete fool you are.

As for making you happy, of making you laugh, you need not thank me. Yours is the laugh of a fool - an idiot who doesn't understand. And your responses and attempted rebuttals to date show you have not even a basic understanding of the issues you pretend to want to discuss or the slightest beginnings of a grasp of what has been said here. You want to hear yourself talk - as it is with some in our administration. The price for that kind of talk is to be told what you already should know - you are an idiot whose views are not worth a thing.

10:57 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

I am just starting with him as well, HCB. I find that the best defense to hate is the light of day... forcing someone to justify their ignorance. For as long as this frakking punk posts, I will be here to shine a huge spotlight on him. And Sammy, these questions will not go away.

10:59 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

Oh, and HCB...I think I know who his local law enforcement friend is... we had a local cop arrested for peeking into women's windows and for multiple rapes. This just HAS to be Sammy's buddy!

11:00 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

I wouldn't doubt it for a minute, Rick, except I cannot imagine this child having any buddies. I"m nearly to the point of believing he is a bedridden moron - literally a moron - who has been given a computer for therapy.

In any event - I'm thoroughly fed up with the way he has acted, the hateful bile he has spewed and the abuse of the blog in general. I do not intend the blog should focus on him but it was slow this afternoon and I decided it's a good time to let it go.

His kind of hateful nonsense - even if recognized as such - is what keeps people from finding a middle ground. You know as I do that when someone like him shows up in a negotiation or mediation, it is, at best, disruptive. And, until something is done about it, people wonder why he's being permitted to speak without any attempt to shut him up. That, suddenly, becomes some kind of tacit approval.

I have said before that I do not agree with Hezbollah and how it has acted. Nor, I think I've made clear, do I side with Israel. One thing is completely clear to me, though - continuing the war by incendiary bombs or incendiary words will produce nothing good. I know I cannot change the situation in Lebanon or Palestine or, even, in my own county. But I can make certain that the people on this blog know that not all Americans are like that idiot - even though we do some profoundly stupid things from time to time. And that's why it's time to stand up to the idiot child bully and tell him to either shut up or be polite.

11:10 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Oh I'm back, well guys you'll make the Authors happy that you're falling for the oldest trick in the book. Tell me how has the conversation here changed in the last 6 weeks?

This is great, this place is loosing credibility and people are going elsewhere. I guess in a nut shell I’m winning.

Go back and look at the number of people that used to post here. You guys are as guilty of making this place laughable.

Thanks for the aide, lets keep it going.

11:17 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Okay Coward, now your letting go....... HAHAHAHAHA

What a loser, I guess you favored daddy ya sicko.

11:20 PM  
Blogger M2Timechange said...

Hcb, Rick
What a joke

Doc, where are you?

11:21 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Hey Niel & Bob, let the Lebs speak. Stop taking up so much space here with your insults.

11:21 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Come on guys, now we have a thrid person and maybe Doc will join too. I guess this blog is completely lost now.

To bad.

11:23 PM  
Blogger M2Timechange said...

Let we sing together
Twinkle...twinkle...little stars..

11:25 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

If I'm a joke and a none issue why do you guys spend so much time going back and forth, all of you. You give me the attention that is destroying this site. You and only you are guilty, I used to post the bill of rights over and over now I just have to say hi.

See my point, you're all to easy to upset. Get over me, ignore me. Mrtez is begging you to let it go.

11:25 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

poor guy. he thinks its a game. how old are you, sam? 12?

your words are really meaningless. if the most biased person on this blog had at least 1% more reason than you, then I would respond appropriately. you my friend, make no sense, are completely blinded by how the real world operates, and have no intellectual arguments. I dont care if you are right or wrong, at least make your point intelligently. But, again, you never have a point...

Maybe to appease you: we all think HZ was wrong in its actions. 9-11 was a tragedy, al-qaeda sucks, and the US really cares about the world. Does that make you happy? Is that like candy to you?

11:26 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

we dont want to change your mind sam...there is no mind to change...

but you are interfering with conversation and discussion over some very important issues. You are like the IDF getting in the way of Leb dialogue over Hezballah.

11:29 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Like I said - when you post something that interests me, you'll hear - when you post that kind of crap, it's obvious to everyone but you. And when you say you guess you're winning, you further demonstrate your idiocy.

Here's the difference, idiot child: you spew obious and utter nonsense with no attempt to relate it to anything either real or demonstrable. So, when you spout your vile attempted insults, they come out as the nonsense they are. But - when you do that, you demonstrate that what I say to and about you is completely true. Even you know it - that you are an idiot, an ass who has no value. You say it yourself - you are "winning" in your attempt to chase people away.

And so, if it pleases you to continually demonstrate I'm correct about you by attempting to say something cute, go for it. Until you present a cogent argument, you have no real credibility - you are simply an interloper. But instead of trying to show I'm wrong by saying something sensible, you choose to prove me right. And that, idiot child, is the proof of your inability to think with even the slightest logic. You defeat yourelf, pick yourself up and kick yourself down again. While we watch and laugh.

Go ahead, idiot child - there's nothing going on in the "war" today - make us laugh. Say something stupid. Which, of course, means, "say something," Or, of course, you could have another tantrum and cut and paste while you drool and curse.

11:30 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11:46 PM  
Blogger M2Timechange said...

A Clean Break:
A New Strategy for Securing the Realm

Following is a report prepared by The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies’ "Study Group on a New Israeli Strategy Toward 2000." The main substantive ideas in this paper emerge from a discussion in which prominent opinion makers, including Richard Perle, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Douglas Feith, Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser participated. The report, entitled "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," is the framework for a series of follow-up reports on strategy.

12:04 AM  
Blogger Sam said...

So mrtez was my question out of line or is it becasue I haven't answered everyone's questions here, mainly yours. I came to this site to converse with people who know what is going on over there, that live there or at least have been there. If i needed a Lesson in US polotics I would go to USA live.

12:05 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

HCB...he's never last in mediation. One of our first rules is not that everyone can handle the process, because it requires listening, and we all know how good he is at that.

Sam, still hiding behind your electronic anonymity? Ready to answer the questions posed to you? Do you have the courage?

12:10 AM  
Blogger Sam said...

Okay Rick, what are your questions?

And no I'm not going back to find them, you post so much crap I don't care to read it all.

12:15 AM  
Blogger Sam said...

As for hiding, lets see I use my full real name. My city and the industry I'm in. Ya you're right that is hiding. My question to you is wh ydoes your friend Coward hide behind everything [except his city] to all. You have never called your lover Coward on the carpet or are you just protecting the weaker mate.

12:17 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

Yes - your question is completely out of line. It is nothing but a sarcastic rant with misstatements of what has been said before. Go back and read those questions and then reframe yours. By the way, it is "politics" - at least I think that's the word you were looking for. And, before you undertake to "learn" about some other country, it would be good for you to pick up a slim volume on America - something with not too many big words.

12:19 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

Keep trying, Idiot child. You've already talked about how everyone here "fell for the oldest trick in the book." I'm not going to have some idiot calling me or writing to me while he drools and jabbers his nonsensical filth. So - you're not going to have the opportunity, idiot child. Live with it.

12:21 AM  
Blogger Sam said...

I'm not asking you Coward, Rick made a statment and I'm responding. Go draw with your kids or something.

12:22 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

There you go again, idiot child - asking Rick to ask you again? Attention deficit disorder, idiot child? Yell and pound your fists on the desk for attention and think everyone will pay you some attention? Well, you've got mine, idiot child. Now - try putting five words together to make a meaningful sentence without misspellings and with proper grammar. Go ahead, idiot child. And when you learn to do that, then try to ask a sensible question. I'll let you know how you do.

12:23 AM  
Blogger Sam said...

Oh a Coward again ask your buddy Rick how many e-mails I have sent him to his listed address, scared to ask huh Coward.

The answer is zero....... The goes your reason for hiding Coward.

12:23 AM  
Blogger Rick said...


I am re-posting the questions below. And while you may have entered your "real" info for Blogger, it is conveniently not available for public viewing. Coward.


How about you for once answer a question that is posed to you that requires you to engage in some actual thinking. I am still waiting to hear about what profound sacrifices or contributions you have made for and to this nation. What have you ever done to earn the freedom that you have? I am also really wanting to hear how it is that other people "make" you feel hatred; how do you rationalize that you are not responsible for your own feelings and actions?

12:24 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

No - you're not "responding" - you're drooling and yapping. Go back to the top of this thread and read his question. Go back and read Mrtez' questions. Stop drooling and banging on the desk.

Oh - are you laughing, idiot child?

12:25 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

You still have my contact form, idiot child - fill it in and I'll call you.

12:26 AM  
Blogger Sam said...

Rick going back to posts, I used my full name over and over. It's also the e-mail address as well. Your lover has never once said his name, not once.

I will answer the questions you ask.

12:27 AM  
Blogger mrtez said...

Sam, your talk about lebanese and the Middle East is as shallow as it comes. Your ignorant generalizations are the reasons why people on this site keep on critisizing your comments.
You talk about this part of the world as being populated by two faced ingrates and hypocrites? How funny that you bring that up in the same comment as your statement about the USA sending a shipment of aid. Last i checked the same fool who approved the food to be sent to Lebanon also approved the bombs being sent to Israel in the first place. Whats that? An honest and generous person that should be thanked?
"we bomb your house, and then we will rebuild it." Guess what, this strategy CANNOT work, and only fools, like Bush, think it will.
On another note, Lebanon does not purchase any weapons to Hizbollah. This is not the way it works my dear, far from it. And making such a shallow and ill-concieved statement proves, once again, that you have absolutely no clue of what you are talking about. I think its better for you to keep on living in your golden cage and enjoy watching the biased media eating your buttered pop-corn. Just think of it as another saturday night movie, oh yes, with no interactive option.
I have to give you credit for attempting to make a structured reply, but in my eyes you failed miserably, once more, in making a point.

12:27 AM  
Blogger Sam said...

Coward to the end, fill it in and I'll contact you back. It's easy being the pussy isn't it Coward.

12:28 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

If Sammy can't see the logic in what you are saying mrtez, then he is truly blind. He is a sad, sad case who has no doubt reinforced many stereotypes of the "Ugly American."

Oh, and Sammy, I hardly think that if you can't be troubled to go back and read my posts that I should bother to do so for yours. No post to me has ever demonstrated an ounce of courage.

Fianlly, Sammy, I don't think that someone who screws rubber dolls (you) is in the position to call my sexuality into question. I've got a wife and three kids. You've got a rubber doll, a keyboard, and a left hand. Enjoy!

12:32 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

As I said, idiot child, say something - anything - whatever it is is laughable.

12:37 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

Oh - here's an idea how you can practice saying something in a way it's understandable. Tell me why it is important for you to have my name and telephone number. Make it understandable, idiot child. And while you're at it, tell me what you meant above when you talked about "the oldest trick in the book." What is that trick? And why did you do it? If those questions aren't framed in a simple enough fashion, tell me and I'll break them down.

Then we'll get to the hard part - starting with why you have said the things you've said about "towels" and "arabs" and "roadside bomb triggers" and the like.

Finally - we'll lead up to the ultimate question for you - what do YOU think is the problem and what do YOU think is the answer? After all, you say you want to talk to some people in the area - at least that's what you said an hour ago. About what?

As you go through that and as you reflect on all your pronouncements about what a good, brave, stalwart, honorable American you are, I'll ask you a third time to answer the very simplest of questions. What have you EVER done for your country? What have you EVER done to demonstrate your bravery? President Kennedy said it many years ago - I'm sure you've never heard it - "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." What's your answer, idiot child. How do you propose we respond to the human disaster we have helped create in Lebanon?

12:44 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

Oh, HCB, how I would LOVE to see real answers to those questions...

12:47 AM  
Blogger M2Timechange said...

Fighting And Dying In Afghanistan For Opium

Abramoff and the Israeli Posing as Atta

Zionist Mob Helped the Mossad Create the Illusion of Arab Hijackers

12:57 AM  
Blogger Doc said...

mrtez, hcb, rick, m2time...

thanks for your thoughtful comments (minus I am Sam ranting)...

I like living in the US and enjoy the many opportunities here. But as everyone with any logic knows, its international policies are at the level of a 2nd-graders understanding of the world.

I agree, the US provides aid, but also weapons to destroy Leb.

The US supports an independent Leb, but now has made us dependent upon the international community for defense and welfare.

The US wants a democratic Iraqi govt but has made that country un-liveable.

and so on and so on....we americans need to think outside the TV box and understanding more about the context and relationships between each country and groups...

1:25 AM  
Blogger Sam said...

Sorry been busy, money first morons second.

I'll have to get back to you guys tomotrrow but in the mean time let mrtez speak for himself.

Coward your always true to your stance, pussy as always. I would rather have Rick insult me, at least he wasn't a traitor in the Nam war. You never did tell me if your red book was current. But Rick again shows his desires, blow up dolls. I guess your wife doesn't get it done for you.

Well bye guys, insult you tomorrow.

2:03 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

Doc, you're right. But the problem is not quite so simple as the US has "decided" to do the things we do. The problem is, we do things without thought.

I was stationed in Germany for three years and travelled quite a bit through Europe. It was an eye opener. All our lives, Americans are taught that we enjoy the highest standard of living in the world. It's not true. More important, though, is the level of ignorance about other countries. Most Americans - Sam's an extreme example - don't know much about America, They have no clue about Europe and Lebanon might as well be on the dark side of the moon. When I returned from Germany, the questions were "do they have electricity in all the houses?" "Do they have cars and good roads?" "ll Germans eat is sausage and sauerbraten - right?" The questions were not meant to be mean - the questioners were sincere. But they were appallingly ignorant about Europe.

I've had European friends visit since and they all say the same thing - Americans are nice but they are stupid.

And that's our problem with Lebanon specifically and the mid-east generally. We have a president who likely did not know where Lebanon is or that there are people who live there who are not "Muslims" or "Islams" or "arabs." It's not that he's an evil person in that sense, it's that he is ignorant. But he won't admit it. Then we have a vice president who really is the one pulling Bush's strings. He sees good and evil and nothing in between. Again, it's not necessarily true that he is an "evil" person. It's that he is ignorant.

The real problem is a more difficult concept for Americans - the nature of our "democracy." While we talk about it as the "best" form of government, we don't think what that means. As a practical matter, what it means is choosing between two people for a position. At the national level, it's for president. At the local level, many people have no idea who they are voting for. The result is pandering. Even the presidential elections are pandering in the hope of gathering votes. So - Bush panders to fear and if his opponent says to lighten up, his opponent is painted as being "soft" and "indecisive" and "not able to lead in a war." The very idea we are at "war" in this so called "war on terror" is outrageous. But it's accepted. "Illegal immigrants" is another hot button issue people don't understand but react to.

Fundamentally, then, we don't "decide" to do much of anything - we react to a situation with very little real thought. Iraq is the current prime example but Lebanon is the one I've wanted so much to use as the best example. Ignoring the human tragedy, it illustrates the complete lack of thought behind our policy. We pay to destroy and then want to look good so we pay to rebuild. And then we have people like some of the commenters here who say we just can't get credit for what we do. Sam wants credit for a shipload of aid - but it wouldn't be necessary had there not been the attack. Israel demands support from the United States but provides nothing real in the way of help for its neighbors.

That's why I argue for an informed, educated, experienced administration. Incredibly, we have no requirements other than natural born citizen and older than 35 to be president of the US. No foreign experience is necessary, for instance - not even a vacation trip. Bush proudly says, "see what a "c" student can do?"

The end result is we want to do right but we're controlled by our fears. And our representatives and executives feed us the fear to get elected and then must respond to the fear to appear they are doing that for which they were elected. Their own fear is that something like 911 will happen again and they will be blamed. And so we go in our circle. Just like the mugwhump bird - flies in circles of ever decreasing diameter at ever increasing speed until he finds his mug stuck firmly in his whump.

The answer is thoughtfulness and respect and education. But we have so many people like sam that it's difficult to imagine it will happen. The danger is that we keep reacting to our fears and cater to them with more death and destruction and misery.

2:09 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

As you can see, doc - the problem with people like our idiot child is the complete lack of education and intelligence. He talks to hear himself talk and then demonstrates he not only has nothing to say but he has such a limited vocabulary he doesn't have the words to say it with.

So, idiot child, go sit with your beer and playstation. You are hopeless but you insist on hanging around. As you can see - you are the perfect example of the failure of our eductation "system." You are the perfect example of what will happen if we don't take steps immediately to cure it. Were it up to me,of course, I'd do with you and your ilk like you suggest we should do with "the towels." But, it's not up to me so the stink will continue.

At least if you're not going to take a bath, get a fresh tissue. And, while you're playing, try to understand that to match wits, you have to have at least one wit.

2:16 AM  
Blogger sarah mac said...

i'm sure that there are so many other people who visit this blog and want to get involved commenting, but i would hazard to guess that all the time and attention spent on addressing "Sam" acts as a deterrent. a lot of interesting ideas and questions have been shared in this forum and i have appreciated the dialogue, but all of that is being entirely overshadowed with this drivel of banter. i began reading this blog when it launched and have only watched the dialogue degenerate miserably. i think everyone knows where "Sam" stands and that's fine. let's just leave it be and please get back to decent conversation that might in the end be somewhat productive.

2:33 AM  
Blogger Doc said...

I agree with you completely. The key is educating ourselves about the world and understanding the context under which people, groups, factions, religions, administrations...act and react.

We simply make the assumption that if a person blows himself up, he is a terrorist. He may well be such, but he may also have a completely different understanding and value to life. But we dont try to understand the context under which various groups live and die. We are blinded by our own biases, as you said.

And no, the american way of life is not the only way to live happily, as i have said repeatedly before. I love this country, yes, but also understand what it means to live happily in another.

i dont have the answer to finding an informed and educated administration, except to inform and educate ourselves and children.

2:40 AM  
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6:47 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

The problem of educating our children is nearly impossible. But I'm not sure it's as bad as it seems - I hope not. But that is something thoughtful leaders should address with parents and schools.

The problem of educating our leaders is easier to address. If we agree the reason for disasters like Lebanon proceed from ignorance, then we must do something about the ignorance. The ignorance, I think, is due to a lack of focuse - something happens, there must be a reaction. Something else, another reaction. And so forth. Now, were we to require balancing our military ability to the need as determined by the military leaders in the same way expenses should be budgeted to income by financial experts, we cause focus. When the military leaders tell us we need 300,000 troops for an invasion of Iraq in addition to those needed for Bosnia and all other places we employ the military, then we must "tax" the citizenry for those troops. Right now what we do is cheat by overusing the reserves and national guard. My thought would be a mandatory draft to fill the need.

A mandatory draft would assure that we have the manpower necessary for any adventure. It also would assure the citizenry is not going to permit the executive to go willy nilly where it decides - no matter how important the president thinks the mission. The case for war will have to be made and a lot more people will be listening if it looks like they or their sons, daughters, husbands or wives are going to be drafted to be part of the shooting.

It's not to say what we're doing is "wrong" - I think it is but many think it's "right." It's to say that before we undertake to spend so many lives and so many dollars there ought to be more thought than obviously was given here.

Israel has a draft and it was draftees who went in on the ground. Look how quickly they decided they needed to get out. Israel cannot afford economically to occupy southern Lebanon so they had to figure out a way to get the rest of the world to pay the bill. And they got the "international force." That's budgeting military forces against the need. Imagine the uproar in Israel if the prime minister announced 30,000 Israeli soldiers are going to stay in Lebanon indefinitely. Israelis would not stand for the cost - no matter the perceived need.

Compare that to the United States - we don't perceive the real cost of the war because very few people are direcly involved and we keep borrowing the money to fight it. We run around with bumper stickers proclaiming we "support the troops" but we do nothing else. There's no sacrifice and there's no reason for people to be seriously interested other than because of the "moral" issues involved. None of which are considered because none of them have been defined.

So - step one: a draft. All by itself, that step will correct the Iraq debacle.

2:25 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Step two will flow from step one - the newspapers will react to public pressure for more information. So - when Israel invades Lebanon, the US media will be asking our president "why?" The best Bush could say today is "I didn't make that decision - Israel is entitled to defend itself." But that also will become the worst answer - because the next questions will be what are we contributing to that "war?" And what are the likely effects on us after the shooting is over? What are our other allies doing about it?

Then we will find the media interested in the economic fallout of such a war - what does it mean in terms of direct dollars to Israel to wage the war and what does it mean in dollars for us to fix what has been broken?

If we can shift the argument from the "moral" stands, we can focus on the problem. Arguments like "we shouldn't do that to people" or "we shouldn't allow Israel to do that" are met with "should too because if we don't the Islamic fascists will take over the world." They are nonsensical arguments with no practical value. We have to ask - guided by media and thinkers - what does this mean? What does what we are doing or are about to do mean to us?

A sure example of the lack of thinking is the fact the "war on terror" is not only being "lost" - it's making us fools. A crazy guy in a turban sits in a cave in a mountain on the other side of the world says, in a homemade video, "I'm gonna getcha." Our president and vice president and secretary of defense and secretary of homeland security go nuts and get on tv to tell us, "you must take this person seriously - he means to destroy our way of life." Good lord - and then he says, "see? we're spending a billion and a half a week in Iraq and Afghanistan, you can't take lipstick on the airplane with you and the fight is going to take a long time. But we're winning, How do I know? Well, just like the star spangled banner was still waving over Fort McHenry, the Sears Tower is still standing."

So - first a draft to FORCE people to pay attention and learn a little. Next, let the information flow begin because people will have become interested in more than what Paris Hilton is up to now.

2:56 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Howard your lonely aren't you..... you need a freind. Since you can;t afford to go to Leb go see Rick. He needs a hug too, you and your little friend can talk all night about things that will never happen becasue shit heads like yourself piss everyone off and make sure that what you seek never happens.

7:45 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

He can't answer questions, but can continue to spew crap and hide behind his computer. Sarah mac is right...this is an utter waste of time and space, kinda like you Sammy. It has become very apparent that you are out of your element when engaging with intelligent people. So I'll stop trying to discuss things with you, Sammy... I don't want to hurt that little pea brain of yours.

HCB...nice thoughtful posts...thanks for the good read.

8:20 PM  
Blogger kevin said...

I thought some of you might want to see this. After the end of fighting in Lebanon I wrote my congress That we need to send as much support to the Lebanese people and government as we could. This is a reply I just received. For those out there saying that it is the republicans fault Hillary is a demarcate.

Thank you for sharing with me your concerns regarding the current situation between Israel and Lebanon . The dramatic escalation of violence in the area is an issue of great importance to me as it is to you and to many of my constituents. As we have done throughout Israel 's history, the United States must continue to support Israel 's right to self-defense. No government can fail to respond when its citizens and soldiers are attacked and abducted or when terrorist groups make incursions into its territory. Recent events demonstrate that Hamas's ascent to power in the Palestinian Authority, and Hezbollah's participation in the Lebanese government, are a dangerous portent for the stability, not only of Israel , but of the entire region.

Israel 's right to exist, and exist in safety, must never be put in question. To ensure the stability of the region, we must send a clear message to Syria , Iran and others that they condemn unprovoked attacks and exercise their influence over Hamas and Hezbollah to bring an end to the violence.

Again, thank you for taking the time to write. Please be assured that I continue to monitor very carefully this profoundly serious situation. For updates on this and other important issues being discussed before the United States Senate, please check my web site at .


Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton

8:52 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Oh ya Rick, check your e-mails.

9:17 PM  
Blogger Sam said...


Two things you have to understand Rick is that being an American doesn’t mean you have to “earn your freedom”. It’s a right given to you the second you enter this country either by birth or through “legal” immigration.

If Coward comes back with his “oh so impressive military background” none of which can be verified anyway due to the fact he doesn’t even show himself. Yes my blog is marked as private now but for the first month and a half it wasn’t and if anyone goes back they’ll see my full name, e-mail address and other info including the city where I call home. Pretty easy to find me with all that info don’t ya think. I would have sent this to Coward but he hides from all and spews his hate just like everyone. Go back to his posts in July & Early August and see how diplomatic he really is.

In the past 14 years I have dedicated myself to the “economical security” of this country and the workers needing jobs. In 1993 a trend in our industry was to move the manufacturing aspect of our business to Mexico, Central America or India. Later the trend shifted to the Pacific Rim countries mainly Thailand, Korea & Indonesia. The final move as been to China and area’s associated with them. Why is this happening, many reasons but the biggest was/is was labor and its associated costs i.e. workman’s comp and pensions. The smart businessmen were sold on the easy idea of closing factories in the states, laying off thousands of workers and setting up in places where a worker earned 30 per week instead of per hour. It makes great business sense because the law makers and bleeding hearts make it so expensive to operate in the states. Everyone thinks they should get paid on employment time not performance and a few more disturbing things like healthcare. Now the inflow of illegal aliens is disrupting the system yet again and the people who pay are the very ones asking for the same illegal aliens to get amnesty or citizenship without any effort or control

No one person can change the world but I figured that if I could save a few hundred jobs I would be making a big a difference and proving our manufacturing doesn’t need to be overseas or to third world countries to survive or make impressive if not greater profit margins. After two years of studying and taking classes in both “Lean Manufacturing” and to ensure that the quality was far superior to overseas production I added the quality control standards of “Six Sigma”. I took chunks of several companies’ ideas including Henry Ford Sr to design a production line that used 39% percent labor while increasing production by 12%. The workers were trained to a higher degree of skill and also to a multitude of positions. These employee’s were all paid at a higher rate than any of our US based competition and had a feeling of pride not felt in most US based factories but every dollar spent was tax deductible for the business. Yes these systems required capital investments that the overseas competitors didn’t face but our quality and consistency was far superior and our delivery times were always 3-4 weeks faster from ARO. After the systems were installed into two separate factories the results were obvious. Now other companies are adopting the system and even the equipment manufactures are making equipment better suited for our production needs and styles. Everyone wins from the employees to the end customer and everyone in between.

So does this qualify as defending our country, yes it does. Some do it with a gun I did it with employment and keeping jobs and money in this country. The more we import the more we support countries that are not always aligned with the security of our ideas or that of their own people. If you require further details and or proof just ask, I know what I’ve done and I have the knowledge and experience to talk the talk and walk the walk. Typing fast and having some typo’s make me no lesser of a person like you guys say, in your world that is how you judge people. It’s sad but you try to make your self feel better by degrading others first.

9:50 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

I posted this becasue Rick will not ever say I replied.

I don't need a "I Love Myslef" page like some people...... I just look across the prodcution floors at happy workers and know that I did help. Knowing that I've helped is all I need.

9:59 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

I posted this becasue Rick will not ever say I replied.

I don't need a "I Love Myslef" page like some people...... I just look across the prodcution floors at happy workers and know that I did help. Knowing that I've helped is all I need.

9:59 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

That reply by Hilary was utter BS...she is brainwashed as much as the rest of congress. Nobody denied Israel's right to exist. That is not the point.Tell me one thing new that she mentioned that we dont already know.

Thanks for sharing.

10:29 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

"No government can fail to respond when its citizens and soldiers are attacked and abducted or when terrorist groups make incursions into its territory."

--That is the most ironic part of the letter. Hahaha.

10:30 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Strange, Rick & Coward have some answers but yet it's so quiet.

10:55 PM  
Blogger kevin said...

Doc I know and it didn't address what I worte to her but the point was were getting the same shit from both partys. More people need to write to there congress

11:05 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

To comment on Coward’s two part post….. If it were only that simple but in your little closed minded world it is. The balance of power and sales of weapons to other countries is and always has been a balancing act. If they don’t get them from us they will get them. They’re also a leader in weapon development, some of what they make comes our way too. Sometimes I wish they did get the weapons from another source, may Russia or China. Then the whiners here wouldn’t have that in there hat to gripe about. Oh and trust me, regardless of what Russia may say now they wouldn’t slow the flow of weapons to the area. They’ve proven that their interests and stance is based on their economic interests only. We have security interests as well as economic in the region. Without Israel’s presence in the area it would be completely over run with whack-jobs seeking to destroy the US just because were still better.

1:13 AM  
Blogger karlos said...

"Without Israel’s presence in the area it would be completely over run with whack-jobs seeking to destroy the US just because were still better."

You were stroking yourself when you wrote weren't you?!

That's pure propaganda.
If Israel accepted the Palestinians right of return, there would be peace. Unfortunately, israel is run by whack-jobs seeking to destroy their Arab neighbours. More unfortunately, the US is also run by whack-jobs seeking to destroy everything it can in the Middle East.

4:47 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Hopefully we do

5:24 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

I'm an American, all I have to do is look back at my travels and it's a fact. Sure I haven't been to certain parts of the world but I can go to the coffee shop and not worry some whako is going to strap a bomb on himself and kill everyone. We have robbers and stuff like that but again I don't live in a poor town or inner city so it's allot less liekly to happen.

So as an American I cna judge anyone in the world I want to. A good chunck of my taxes to to world relief and Leb is one of the countries getting allot of money. AS dfo most of the second class nations. They just can't take care of themselves, even allot of the so called world leaders can't handle their own problems and require outside intervention. The only time we let aide come into the states is to sooth our friends. We don't need hand outs like the rest of you people.

5:41 PM  
Blogger karlos said...


You are showing your ignorance and your racism.

Suicide bombers in the Middle East are not common in normal life. They have been used in Iraq and Israel to fight an oppressingarmy.

American children going wild with guns at school are not common either and I don't judge America by the actions of a few.

As of August 21, 2006, the total U.S. government debt was $8.507 trillion.

In 2005 the public debt was 64.7% of GDP. According to the CIA's World Factbook, this meant that the U.S. public debt was the 35th largest in the world by percentage of GDP. In absolute value, it is easily the largest.

2:02 AM  
Blogger chk said...

Oh my god.

When I read most of these comments, I know why there's always a war :-|

If there were weapons here in the forum, there'd be a few less people reading now...


5:03 PM  

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