Arab MKs in Beirut and Damascus
What are your thoughts on this following issue? Do the Arab MKs have the right to visit other Arab nations and if so (or not) why? Should Israel stop them from opening ties with Arab nations or use them to reach agreements with them? Is it right that there is a law with a 4-year sentence against such visits? Your thoughts on this are valuable.
Balad MKs praise Hizbullah resistance in Beirut visit
JPost
By SHEERA CLAIRE FRENKEL
Three Arab Knesset members met with Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora in Beirut on Friday, where they expressed their sympathy for the plight of the Lebanese during the war - as well as their support for Hizbullah.
Hizbullah's resistance to Israel has "lifted the spirit of the Arab people," Balad MKs Azmi Bishara, Jamal Zahalka and Wasal Taha told the prime minister.
The MKs' arrival in Lebanon on Thursday following a week-long trip to Syria has become one of the most controversial "solidarity missions" in the history of the Israeli legislature.
The three Balad MKs coordinated their visit with the speaker of the Lebanese Parliament, Nabih Berri, who is close to Hizbullah.
"Their visit is blatant treason... it is an act of espionage," said Israel Beiteinu chairman Avigdor Lieberman, who has already called for the three to be dismissed from the Knesset.
During their week in Syria, the lawmakers met with political and religious leaders, making headlines when they told Baath party officials that Israel was likely to attack Syria to recover its military deterrence.
Bishara expressed support for Syria's struggle to free "occupied Arab land" and praised Syrian support for "resistance to the occupation."
Attorney-General Menahem Mazuz has opened an investigation against the three for the visit to Syria. Police said Thursday that the investigation would be carried out by the International Serious Crimes Unit.
Knesset members are prohibited from traveling to enemy countries under a 2001 law that carries sanctions of up to four years in jail. That law was passed after Bishara visited to Syria but escaped legal action after it was determined that there was no law prohibiting his trip.
"We passed a law specifically against this type of thing five years ago, and that law was hand-written for Bishara," said one NU-NRP MK. "Now he has the gall to travel to Syria again? They [the Balad MKs] don't deserve to be in the Knesset."
The Balad legislators have responded to the outcry against them by saying in a statement that they were prepared to "face the consequences" of their visit.
"This trip is to express solidarity with the victims of the war," a Balad spokesman said. "It is our right, and the right of Arabs in Israel, to remain in contact with Arab nations."
In Syria, Zahalka met with Syrian President Bashar Assad, who told the MK that Syria was committed to the 2002 Arab League peace initiative and that he would establish official ties with Israel only after Israel accepted the initiative.
Hizbullah's resistance to Israel has "lifted the spirit of the Arab people," Balad MKs Azmi Bishara, Jamal Zahalka and Wasal Taha told the prime minister.
The MKs' arrival in Lebanon on Thursday following a week-long trip to Syria has become one of the most controversial "solidarity missions" in the history of the Israeli legislature.
The three Balad MKs coordinated their visit with the speaker of the Lebanese Parliament, Nabih Berri, who is close to Hizbullah.
"Their visit is blatant treason... it is an act of espionage," said Israel Beiteinu chairman Avigdor Lieberman, who has already called for the three to be dismissed from the Knesset.
During their week in Syria, the lawmakers met with political and religious leaders, making headlines when they told Baath party officials that Israel was likely to attack Syria to recover its military deterrence.
Bishara expressed support for Syria's struggle to free "occupied Arab land" and praised Syrian support for "resistance to the occupation."
Attorney-General Menahem Mazuz has opened an investigation against the three for the visit to Syria. Police said Thursday that the investigation would be carried out by the International Serious Crimes Unit.
Knesset members are prohibited from traveling to enemy countries under a 2001 law that carries sanctions of up to four years in jail. That law was passed after Bishara visited to Syria but escaped legal action after it was determined that there was no law prohibiting his trip.
"We passed a law specifically against this type of thing five years ago, and that law was hand-written for Bishara," said one NU-NRP MK. "Now he has the gall to travel to Syria again? They [the Balad MKs] don't deserve to be in the Knesset."
The Balad legislators have responded to the outcry against them by saying in a statement that they were prepared to "face the consequences" of their visit.
"This trip is to express solidarity with the victims of the war," a Balad spokesman said. "It is our right, and the right of Arabs in Israel, to remain in contact with Arab nations."
In Syria, Zahalka met with Syrian President Bashar Assad, who told the MK that Syria was committed to the 2002 Arab League peace initiative and that he would establish official ties with Israel only after Israel accepted the initiative.
posted by beirutlive at 6:26 PM
14 Comments:
Mrtez, the heart of the matter is here:
"Their visit is blatant treason... it is an act of espionage,"
Rather than encourage a dialogue with a neighboring country, the Knesset makes it illegal - a law obviously enacted to limit some members of the Knesset while not similarly limiting others.
The first sign of irrationality is the idea advanced that the visit is "treason" and "espionage." I'm still trying to figure out who it was Israel was at "war" with, but I thought the idea was to rid Lebanon of Hezbollah. In other words, Israel was not opposed to Lebanon per se - it was opposed to Hezbollah being IN Lebanon and had determined to cleanse the country. In fact - if I remember correctly, a lot of Lebanese initially agreed to the "cleansing."
The bigger problem is that the Knesset is too closely following Bush and crowd - more poodles like Blair, I suppose. Bush and crowd think talking to Syria or Lebanon or Hamas or Fatah or Hezbollah or anyone else who doesn't agree, is some kind of treason or, at least, stupidity. When Jane Fonda and Joan Baez visited North Vietnam, they were roundly criticized as "treasonists" because they were "giving aid and comfort to the enemy." Simply by saying "we don't hate you" and broadcasting to the American troops there was no reason to hate them and kill them.
What the Knesset is doing is demonstrating the extent to which irrational thinking can be taken. They really are not concerned that these members are "treasonous" or are spying - they are worried their PR will take a hit. Just like Bush took a big hit yesterday when republican senators defected and his "terror" bill was not passed, the conservatives in the Knesset are worried too much will be said about the terrible things Israel has done to Lebanon. I'm wondering why they aren't screaming about the US providing aid to rebuild what they tore down.
I'm anxiously awaiting "Sam's" take on this - he's going to call a drinking buddy, ask "what's the Knesset" and then he'll be prepared to say something. He has, however, finally said something that makes sense: "Since I know nothing my comments are pretty much meaningless on this on." Although, it doesn't make a lot of sense to say something and then say "I don't know what I'm talking about." Of course, that's a lot like George Bush and his gang. Although, they don't say "we didn't know what we were talking about." They say, "obviously what we thought was true was false." Not a whole lot of difference but Bush and gang are political pros.
taSure - even our president (Nixon - a republican) visited China long ago and long before it was what it is today. The idea was to work out a way we could deal with China other than by threat and counter-threat.
When ask if "politicians" can travel to North Korea or Cuba - it depends on who you mean by "Politicians." Many "politicians" like Jesse Jackson have travelled to places they are not supposed to go. I don't know if you include Jimmy Carter as a "politician" (I do) but he visited Cuba a couple years ago.
But, since you say it's no big deal to not know the Knesset is Israel's parliament - even though Israel and it's actions ARE such a big deal and even though it was the Knesset upon whom Israel and the Lebanese had to wait for the cease fire to take effect, I guess it's also not a "big deal" to have any idea about the Constitution of the United States or what "Congress" is or anything at all about an "international force" and its authority. It's pretty hard to imagine how anyone who reads a newspaper or, even, pays attention to a tv newscast, can't know what the Knesset is.
So - like "sam" said, it's all pretty meaningless. Given a complete lack of either knowledge or understanding, I mean.
Where do you people come from? No matter if you agree with me and no matter what you or "sam" thinks of me, don't you think it appropriate that you have at least a vague idea about the subject matter before you speak?
What harm is it the visit by the MKs to Lebanon did to Israel?
Kevin, the easiest way - even easier than calling a drinking buddy - to learn about Knesset is to go to www.google.com and search on "Knesset." You surely won't learn everything but if you've never heard of it, it's not a bad place to start.
Jane Fonda was a bimbo. A folk singer turned actress. She starred in "Barbarella" - a movie which I would think would put to rest any serious concern that she could ever be a threat to the United States or the condition of the world.
But a lot of people said a lot of bad things about the United States in Vietnam. A lot of newspapers editorialized a lot about that grievous mistake. Are they treasonists? Or is the difference that they said it from here rather than North Vietnam?
Do you remember the indictment against Jane Fonda for treason? Or against Joan Baez? Do you wonder why you don't hear much about them being shot or going to jail for "treason?"
What about John McCain - is he guilty of treason?
idiot child - it's "herr" not "heir". "heir" is the person who benefits from a will. "Herr" is German for "mister."
By the way - the dictionary is a grouping of words in alphabetical order. You don't need to be afraid to use it because you think you have to read the whole thing just to find one word.
Gee - I fell into the second oldest trap, didn't I idiot child? Imagine that - you knew all along and just set me up. You wanted to embarrass me into being showed up by an idiot child and, by golly, you surely did.
What have you learned about the Knesset so far, idiot child? Did your Jewish friend teach you enough on the phone to say something about this topic that is not, as you say, "pretty much meaningless?"
Or do you intend to just continue your meaningless drivel?
Further to the point of this thread, the issue seems to be "what is treason?" The Knesset passed the law to prohibit the visit - or, at least, that's the interpretation given to the law by those who object to the visit. Ignoring whether it's a good idea for members of the Knesset to make the visit, the first issue has to be whether the law covers THIS visit. Next, is the visit "treason" or "espionage?"
I think it's helpful to look at what's happening in the US in similar circumstances today. Bush and his gang say HIS version of the "terror law" is needed to protect the country. Would it not follow from that that anything that restricts the needed protections is "treasonous?" But the supreme court struck his policy and procedure as unconstitutional and now Bush has been rebuffed in his effort to have congress pass a law that would have legalized his policies and procedures.
Are the Supreme Court and the rebelling senators treasonists? The way Bush puts the problem, it surely would seem so:
“If not for this (anti-terror) program, our intelligence community believes al-Qaida and its allies would have succeeded in launching another attack against the American homeland,” he said.
“Unfortunately the recent Supreme Court decision put the future of this program in question. ... We need this legislation to save it.”
Both the Supreme Court and the Senate have said he cannot have what he says is so necessary. They haven't simply said he shouldn't be able to do what he wants to do - they have absolutely prohibited him from doint it.
Treason?
There you go, Doc - and dobeg and kevin and everyone else. All you have to believe is that the idiot child who speaks such filth here is a "very well behaved gentleman" with "impeccable manners."
But - for the second time today, the idiot child has said something sensible: "... I don't fit in here."
"Well behaved" and "impeccable manners" are not turned on and off. A person either respects others or not. There are very few people on this blog who have not been the target of this vile, filth-spewing, idiot child.
His value, though, is in being the constant reminder there really are people like him. Sometimes, good people cannot imagine it - people who are simply vile and evil. Those are the people who decide to kill and maim and destroy when alternatives exist. They are the people who we don't see in Hezbollah and Hamas and the IDF. They are the people for whom deception and hate are the prime movers of their lives. Good people cannot imagine that kind of irrational behavior. And that is why it is good that "sam" is here. A constant reminder with his foul language and filthy attempts at insult. Knowing nothing but constantly yelling his meaningless drivel.
The members of the Knesset who traveled to Lebanon have done no wrong. It certainly does not appear they took with them some kind of secret war plans - if they had that kind of information, Israel certainly would have said something by now to support the idea they are guilty of treason or espionage.
No - those members have simply done something the other members don't like and are angry about. That's the parallel to "sam" - they speak without thinking and do so very noisily while saying foul things about the object of their anger.
That was me, indeed. And I immediately apologized to everyone on this blog for posting it, idiot child. I was angry and admitted the anger. The apology is in that same thread. You don't mention it for obvious reasons. For equally obvious reasons you don't say how you announced your decision to "tear down" the blog by posting and reposting what you described as "trash" so as to interfere with everyone on the blog. In the same kind of senseless acting, you decided you would demand everyone's attention that day by simply posting and reposting so no one else could.
I don't use those words now, idiot child - although you haven't changed since then. You still throw your filth around freely - I don't. You remain a vile, filth-spewing idiot child who demands attention constantly. You know nothing, you say nothing of value and you freely admit your bigotry - as any idiot child would.
Now - if that makes you feel better, good for you. I'm returning to the subject of the thread and will let you freely spew your nonsense until finally someone tells you simply to go to hell and blocks you.
Thanks, Doc - and nicely put.
Idiot children tend to bore themselves after a while. Or they get hoarse and worn out.
I really wish someone with some news outfit would ask Israel if it isn't a good idea to be talking with the Lebanese PM and parliament. I assume the US is talking - Lebanon certainly isn't our enemy (I think I'm right, there). And, it seemed the UN was talking to the PM - in fact, I think I remember a picture of Messrs Sinora and Annan walking through Beirut. Finally, I think I'm right that the Lebanese army is going to be working with the "international force." Given all those circumstances, I would think Israel would want to be in the middle of conversations - not condemning a meeting.
But that's the trouble with extremists on both sides. Extremists make up their minds and nothing will change it. So, "all jews must die" and, "islamic fascists want to kill us" and "the war on terror is a defining moment in this century." And, the war on terror is a battle about which ideology - "Islamic" or, I guess, Judeo-Christianity - will prevail.
That kind of inflammatory talk and the resulting extreme actions is the root of all the trouble. We lose sight of what we're talking about when we talk about "they are going to kill us." Or "they want what we have." Now we don't talk about who these "Islamic Fascists" really are - we simply use the term as a buzz word to spread fear. And then we talk about how to kill the people of whom we are afraid. But we never talk about why we are afraid or if, even, there's something to be afraid of.
But - remember how Cassius Clay was demeaned when he became Muhammad Ali. And "Malcolm X". And so many others. We labelled them "treasonists" or "murderer" or worse. Now we label them "terrorist" and justify everything else as a result. We willingly give up constitutional guarantees to salve our fears. It is an outrage and the worse possible insult to our forefathers and those who fought in the revolutionary, civil and world wars. An absolute insult to those who truly did fight for our freedoms.
Good evening to everybody.
I would like to clarify the issue :
There is no law forbidding visits to Arab countries. There is a law forbidding visits to countries hostile to Israel.
For example , Egypt , Jordan , Morocco , Mauritania , Qatar , Oman and Tunisia aren't considered as hostile and we have diplomatic relations at various levels ( full relations with Egypt , Jordan & Mauritania ).
Another interesting example is Bahrain . We still don't have dip. relations but Bahrain (also UAE, Yemen) aren't considered hostile.
But Syria , Iraq , Lybia , Sudan and Lebanon ( hope for the quick change for the latter) are hostile to Israel , and Israeli citizens aren't allowed to go there.
Iran isn't an Arabic country but it is hostile.
So going to Syria without the special permit from the govt. law attorney is a clear law violation.
Unfortunately , mr. Azmi Bshara doesn't care about social rights of Arab citizens of Israel which voted for him. Hamas , Hizballa etc. - those are his friends. Even Walid Jumblatt described him as a syrian agent.
Agreed Kevin - we'll leave it that we disagree on Jane Fonda.
And the seat belt law - we agree on it in all respects. However, it is not such an important law - it is an unnecessary intrusion but it is not such that it seriously threatens anything important. On the other hand, pre-civil rights legislation (and since) we have had "civil disobedience" as I'm sure you know. That disobedience arose when people who had been told to "work within the system" found nothing worked. Trying to work "within the law" to change such laws as were involved there (poll taxes, for example) just had no effect. The people who had made those laws were the majority and the majority wasn't about to change them. But, as the US Supreme Court determined, the minority are also protected. So - the "civil disobedience" began as criminal acts in which people simply said they were not going to abide by the law that so fundamentally affected them. And now, people can no longer imagine laws that required "colored" to "seat from the rear" of the bus or drink from water fountains labeled "colored" or wait in "colored" waiting rooms. Those fundamental changes came from challenging existing laws - not from abiding by them and working within them for change.
But, I am intrigued by Israel's reaction to the MK's visit while Haaretz, for example, is publishing some articles that are not very complimentary. Articles I would think could be interpreted as "giving aid and comfort to the enemy."
And, may I add to what Doc says, Kevin? It IS a law, apparently, and if it's broken, I don't suggest the members shouldn't be arrested and tried for the violations. That, in fact, was the point of the "civil disobedience" - get it before the courts and out of the legislature and public opinion. The violations should be heard and disposed with under the Israeli constitution. The issues will be presented and the court will decide if the law is constitutional. Obviously, there will be a much larger audience than simply the Knesset in that case and it may either bring clarity to the law, cause the law's repeal or harden the law.
I agree with you that it should not be a defense that "I am trying to bring about change." And I certainly think Israel can pass whatever laws Israel considers appropriate. But I don't think it works to say, simply, we'll abide by it and work within the law.
As we know, things go wrong when the leaders go wrong. Bad decisions beget bad decisions and dishonesty spreads from the personal to the public. That's especially true when there's a lot of money around. Then - when the dishonesty is discovered, the dishonest person reacts badly and starts to look for ways to divert attention from himself to something else - a "war" perhaps. So, here's an AP story from Saturday afternoon:
JERUSALEM - The president is being questioned on sexual harassment and wiretapping charges. The former justice minister is standing trial on accusations of sexual misconduct. The prime minister is being investigated for possible foul play in real estate deals.
An unrelenting wave of corruption scandals — which many blame on an increasingly selfish political culture — has further disillusioned Israelis already furious with their leaders over the devastating war in Lebanon.
“It’s too much,” former lawmaker Yossi Sarid said, adding that he feared Israel was “becoming a sort of Sodom.”
And yes - I am fully aware that Arafat was as corrupt and incompetent a "leader" who has trod the sands of the mideast. He also is a good object lesson when it comes to assessing leaders. He was so selfish that he sold out the people he pretended to lead for his personal gain and ego. It is the people like Arafat and others who turn their positions of trust into positions of personal gain who are to blame for so much misery.
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