Friday, September 15, 2006

Arab MKs in Beirut and Damascus

What are your thoughts on this following issue? Do the Arab MKs have the right to visit other Arab nations and if so (or not) why? Should Israel stop them from opening ties with Arab nations or use them to reach agreements with them? Is it right that there is a law with a 4-year sentence against such visits? Your thoughts on this are valuable.
Balad MKs praise Hizbullah resistance in Beirut visit
JPost
By SHEERA CLAIRE FRENKEL
Three Arab Knesset members met with Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora in Beirut on Friday, where they expressed their sympathy for the plight of the Lebanese during the war - as well as their support for Hizbullah.
Hizbullah's resistance to Israel has "lifted the spirit of the Arab people," Balad MKs Azmi Bishara, Jamal Zahalka and Wasal Taha told the prime minister.
The MKs' arrival in Lebanon on Thursday following a week-long trip to Syria has become one of the most controversial "solidarity missions" in the history of the Israeli legislature.
The three Balad MKs coordinated their visit with the speaker of the Lebanese Parliament, Nabih Berri, who is close to Hizbullah.
"Their visit is blatant treason... it is an act of espionage," said Israel Beiteinu chairman Avigdor Lieberman, who has already called for the three to be dismissed from the Knesset.
During their week in Syria, the lawmakers met with political and religious leaders, making headlines when they told Baath party officials that Israel was likely to attack Syria to recover its military deterrence.
Bishara expressed support for Syria's struggle to free "occupied Arab land" and praised Syrian support for "resistance to the occupation."
Attorney-General Menahem Mazuz has opened an investigation against the three for the visit to Syria. Police said Thursday that the investigation would be carried out by the International Serious Crimes Unit.
Knesset members are prohibited from traveling to enemy countries under a 2001 law that carries sanctions of up to four years in jail. That law was passed after Bishara visited to Syria but escaped legal action after it was determined that there was no law prohibiting his trip.
"We passed a law specifically against this type of thing five years ago, and that law was hand-written for Bishara," said one NU-NRP MK. "Now he has the gall to travel to Syria again? They [the Balad MKs] don't deserve to be in the Knesset."
The Balad legislators have responded to the outcry against them by saying in a statement that they were prepared to "face the consequences" of their visit.
"This trip is to express solidarity with the victims of the war," a Balad spokesman said. "It is our right, and the right of Arabs in Israel, to remain in contact with Arab nations."
In Syria, Zahalka met with Syrian President Bashar Assad, who told the MK that Syria was committed to the 2002 Arab League peace initiative and that he would establish official ties with Israel only after Israel accepted the initiative.

50 Comments:

Blogger Sam said...

Okay I will openly admit that I don’t know what the Knesset is but if the Israeli’s have a law forbidding it then it should be enforced. If it’s an unfair law then people should work to change the law, to be better educated I will read into it [call one of my Jewish friends] and see. Since I know nothing my comments are pretty much meaningless on this on.

7:23 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Mrtez, the heart of the matter is here:

"Their visit is blatant treason... it is an act of espionage,"

Rather than encourage a dialogue with a neighboring country, the Knesset makes it illegal - a law obviously enacted to limit some members of the Knesset while not similarly limiting others.

The first sign of irrationality is the idea advanced that the visit is "treason" and "espionage." I'm still trying to figure out who it was Israel was at "war" with, but I thought the idea was to rid Lebanon of Hezbollah. In other words, Israel was not opposed to Lebanon per se - it was opposed to Hezbollah being IN Lebanon and had determined to cleanse the country. In fact - if I remember correctly, a lot of Lebanese initially agreed to the "cleansing."

The bigger problem is that the Knesset is too closely following Bush and crowd - more poodles like Blair, I suppose. Bush and crowd think talking to Syria or Lebanon or Hamas or Fatah or Hezbollah or anyone else who doesn't agree, is some kind of treason or, at least, stupidity. When Jane Fonda and Joan Baez visited North Vietnam, they were roundly criticized as "treasonists" because they were "giving aid and comfort to the enemy." Simply by saying "we don't hate you" and broadcasting to the American troops there was no reason to hate them and kill them.

What the Knesset is doing is demonstrating the extent to which irrational thinking can be taken. They really are not concerned that these members are "treasonous" or are spying - they are worried their PR will take a hit. Just like Bush took a big hit yesterday when republican senators defected and his "terror" bill was not passed, the conservatives in the Knesset are worried too much will be said about the terrible things Israel has done to Lebanon. I'm wondering why they aren't screaming about the US providing aid to rebuild what they tore down.

I'm anxiously awaiting "Sam's" take on this - he's going to call a drinking buddy, ask "what's the Knesset" and then he'll be prepared to say something. He has, however, finally said something that makes sense: "Since I know nothing my comments are pretty much meaningless on this on." Although, it doesn't make a lot of sense to say something and then say "I don't know what I'm talking about." Of course, that's a lot like George Bush and his gang. Although, they don't say "we didn't know what we were talking about." They say, "obviously what we thought was true was false." Not a whole lot of difference but Bush and gang are political pros.

7:55 PM  
Blogger dobegs said...

Israeli Law is very clear simple and makes sense.... Israelis should stay out of Enemy countries so not to provoke and also not to endanger themselves nor the state of Israel. the guys who are now traveling are israeli citizens members of the Israeli parlament (they happen to be arab but who cares)a law is a law and therefore these guys will be questionned when they get back.

Let me ask the lovely americans here if they and their politicians are also allowed to travel to Cuba or north Korea or .... Iran ??

Sam - you raised a good point, though not informed, no big deal... the knesset is the israeli Parlament big deal I bet Howard and co know every name for every house of parlament as it could also be a hobby. :-)

8:28 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Heir Stains,

Still no rebutal to the post huh? Like someone once said remove the teeth from the animal and what do you have left, you have Heir Stains. A wahed up bitter old man who spends all his time acting better than thou and spreading evil like the Nazi's of past and the Neo's of present. I've removed the teeth from the animal and he can't responf anymore. Does the ex military file clerk have nothing more to say? Where is Ricky, why hasn't he responded either? Ricky and Heir Stains what a pair of yellow bastards.

8:31 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Our polociy is not to deal directly with our enemies. It's not right but Iraq has taught us that. WE will use the world to help until as always the UN fails to do something on time or with enough power to really control of fix a problem. We should allow our officials to travel to other nations of evil as long as it's approved members that are properly briefed and ready. Not just looking for political gain for their own needs.

8:33 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

This is the first I have heard of such a thing....Hmmm, yay. i agree that Israel is worried about its PR. Since when is it treason to talk to the "enemy". Now if they are slipping weapons under their coats and handing off to HZ, then I can see their point.

That's the problem with leaders today: nobody wants to discuss and talk like rational human beings.

"It is our right, and the right of Arabs in Israel, to remain in contact with Arab nations"...Sanctioning Arab Knesset in Israel from visiting their neighbors is the equivalent of limiting and prohibiting prison visits.

8:37 PM  
Blogger kevin said...

Hcb I to do not know what Knesset is and if you could explain it to me it would be nice. But as far as your reference to Jane Fonda. She is a traitor and you of all people surprise me by saying any thing else. We she went to Vietnam she did so with the sole intention of making all GI's look like baby killer and when she went into the north she was handed a note by one of the prisoner in which she hid from the cameras after the interview was other she gave it to the north. That prisoner was then beaten almost to death.

8:44 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Kevin I have said for a month now that Heir Stains aka Hcb is a traitor. He supported the VC during that very war. He knows and thinks like Jane becasue he is a Jane. He faught against the true soldiers of the Nam war. He is jaded becasue he becasme a traitor for money and personal gain. His views are based soley on his greed and he was brainwashed while spying for the North in the 60's and 70's. To bad they didn't convict him and put him in front of a firing squad where he blonged.

8:49 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

taSure - even our president (Nixon - a republican) visited China long ago and long before it was what it is today. The idea was to work out a way we could deal with China other than by threat and counter-threat.

When ask if "politicians" can travel to North Korea or Cuba - it depends on who you mean by "Politicians." Many "politicians" like Jesse Jackson have travelled to places they are not supposed to go. I don't know if you include Jimmy Carter as a "politician" (I do) but he visited Cuba a couple years ago.


But, since you say it's no big deal to not know the Knesset is Israel's parliament - even though Israel and it's actions ARE such a big deal and even though it was the Knesset upon whom Israel and the Lebanese had to wait for the cease fire to take effect, I guess it's also not a "big deal" to have any idea about the Constitution of the United States or what "Congress" is or anything at all about an "international force" and its authority. It's pretty hard to imagine how anyone who reads a newspaper or, even, pays attention to a tv newscast, can't know what the Knesset is.

So - like "sam" said, it's all pretty meaningless. Given a complete lack of either knowledge or understanding, I mean.

Where do you people come from? No matter if you agree with me and no matter what you or "sam" thinks of me, don't you think it appropriate that you have at least a vague idea about the subject matter before you speak?

What harm is it the visit by the MKs to Lebanon did to Israel?

8:51 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Heir Stains is very good at coming out from behind his screen to jab and the run right back to the safety never showing his face or identity. He has never once showed the world who he is, I have and I tossed in a pic to prove it. They have never responded and then stopped attacking me about it. They stopped becasue I called them on it. Heir Stains hides like he did yesterday when called on the carpet to face his co countrymen. WEll he isn't a co, he is a coward.

All hail Heir Stains!!!!!!!!!

8:52 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

To answer your question, HCB, the harm is in the form of Israel's public relations. What would the world think if part of the knesset visited Lebanon, supposedly the "enemy" territory. But wait! Israel was not at war with Lebanon, they were at war with Hizballah. Or were they? I am getting dizzy.

8:55 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9:04 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Kevin, the easiest way - even easier than calling a drinking buddy - to learn about Knesset is to go to www.google.com and search on "Knesset." You surely won't learn everything but if you've never heard of it, it's not a bad place to start.

Jane Fonda was a bimbo. A folk singer turned actress. She starred in "Barbarella" - a movie which I would think would put to rest any serious concern that she could ever be a threat to the United States or the condition of the world.

But a lot of people said a lot of bad things about the United States in Vietnam. A lot of newspapers editorialized a lot about that grievous mistake. Are they treasonists? Or is the difference that they said it from here rather than North Vietnam?

Do you remember the indictment against Jane Fonda for treason? Or against Joan Baez? Do you wonder why you don't hear much about them being shot or going to jail for "treason?"

What about John McCain - is he guilty of treason?

9:09 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

idiot child - it's "herr" not "heir". "heir" is the person who benefits from a will. "Herr" is German for "mister."

By the way - the dictionary is a grouping of words in alphabetical order. You don't need to be afraid to use it because you think you have to read the whole thing just to find one word.

9:14 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

I knew you would make the correction you fool. You are a good little Neo Nazi.

9:17 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

HA HA HA HA HA always ready to correct other people but never yourself.

9:20 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Gee - I fell into the second oldest trap, didn't I idiot child? Imagine that - you knew all along and just set me up. You wanted to embarrass me into being showed up by an idiot child and, by golly, you surely did.

What have you learned about the Knesset so far, idiot child? Did your Jewish friend teach you enough on the phone to say something about this topic that is not, as you say, "pretty much meaningless?"

Or do you intend to just continue your meaningless drivel?

9:22 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

Sam, you are mature, classy and educated. thank you for your thoughtful comments.

9:24 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

I said my comments Stains, you can twist and turn it all you want.
Who are you anyway, you're a Stain on your mom's crack at best. You hide, you're a coward. Who is Stains does anyone know? Has he ever said his real name?

Come out Stains, show yourself and be a man, at least Rick has from the start. You send little gay forms to fill out telling more about ourselves while you still hide. Come say I'm a stalker, Rick will tell how often I bother him away from this site. Come on Stains......

9:30 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Further to the point of this thread, the issue seems to be "what is treason?" The Knesset passed the law to prohibit the visit - or, at least, that's the interpretation given to the law by those who object to the visit. Ignoring whether it's a good idea for members of the Knesset to make the visit, the first issue has to be whether the law covers THIS visit. Next, is the visit "treason" or "espionage?"

I think it's helpful to look at what's happening in the US in similar circumstances today. Bush and his gang say HIS version of the "terror law" is needed to protect the country. Would it not follow from that that anything that restricts the needed protections is "treasonous?" But the supreme court struck his policy and procedure as unconstitutional and now Bush has been rebuffed in his effort to have congress pass a law that would have legalized his policies and procedures.

Are the Supreme Court and the rebelling senators treasonists? The way Bush puts the problem, it surely would seem so:

“If not for this (anti-terror) program, our intelligence community believes al-Qaida and its allies would have succeeded in launching another attack against the American homeland,” he said.

“Unfortunately the recent Supreme Court decision put the future of this program in question. ... We need this legislation to save it.”

Both the Supreme Court and the Senate have said he cannot have what he says is so necessary. They haven't simply said he shouldn't be able to do what he wants to do - they have absolutely prohibited him from doint it.

Treason?

9:33 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Doc if you or Stains define class or education then I am doing just fine. When I'm not surrounded by treasonous scum I'm a very well behaved gentleman. My manners are impeccable; I respect people and give them first thought even before my own needs. So again if you and your little Nazi buddies are in your mind “classy” then I’m glad I don’t fit in here.

9:34 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Stains is very good when defining treason. I wonder why?

9:35 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Come on Stains, yesterday is making you look bad and you know it. Is it hard to look other people eye to eye, the shame must be great. Oh wait, you feel zero shame because it's just how you were raised. I guess I should not be so mean, it's not your fault alone that your a cowar dand traitor.

9:40 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

There you go, Doc - and dobeg and kevin and everyone else. All you have to believe is that the idiot child who speaks such filth here is a "very well behaved gentleman" with "impeccable manners."

But - for the second time today, the idiot child has said something sensible: "... I don't fit in here."

"Well behaved" and "impeccable manners" are not turned on and off. A person either respects others or not. There are very few people on this blog who have not been the target of this vile, filth-spewing, idiot child.

His value, though, is in being the constant reminder there really are people like him. Sometimes, good people cannot imagine it - people who are simply vile and evil. Those are the people who decide to kill and maim and destroy when alternatives exist. They are the people who we don't see in Hezbollah and Hamas and the IDF. They are the people for whom deception and hate are the prime movers of their lives. Good people cannot imagine that kind of irrational behavior. And that is why it is good that "sam" is here. A constant reminder with his foul language and filthy attempts at insult. Knowing nothing but constantly yelling his meaningless drivel.

The members of the Knesset who traveled to Lebanon have done no wrong. It certainly does not appear they took with them some kind of secret war plans - if they had that kind of information, Israel certainly would have said something by now to support the idea they are guilty of treason or espionage.

No - those members have simply done something the other members don't like and are angry about. That's the parallel to "sam" - they speak without thinking and do so very noisily while saying foul things about the object of their anger.

9:47 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

HCB said...
You've demonstrated your real self, you stinky little squirt of pee. Here's what I suggest - get your filthy self on an airplane. I'll give you my phone number. We'll meet and we'll see how long a stinky little glob of sewage can stand - you will be on your ass in no more than ten seconds begging for help you miserable piece of scum. Now - get your miserable self out from behind your computer and give me your flight number. I'm calling you out, shit for brains - come and get it or be forever known as the miserable little scum coward you are. Feeling tough, sewage boy? Come and get it - you aren't tough - you're all drooling mouth and no guts at all. Come on, scumbag - let's see who you are really.

1:10 AM

9:53 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Stains are you going to sit here and tell people your innocent of using foul words or things about my mother, father, sexuality and other things? Or do I have to go back and again pull your words from past posts or can you man up?

I know you cna't, we know you can't. It's okay stains, we all know your side of it.

All Hail old great Stains!!!!!!

9:55 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

PS I come from behind my computer, oh Great Stains do the same!!!!!

Scared little girl.

9:55 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Your e-mail is posted above, where is the man that wrote that. I bet some your kid jumped on the computer and siad dad stop being a pussy and man up. That has to be it, your kid is the balls in the family, your the Satins of the famliy.

9:57 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

sorry Stains

9:57 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

That was me, indeed. And I immediately apologized to everyone on this blog for posting it, idiot child. I was angry and admitted the anger. The apology is in that same thread. You don't mention it for obvious reasons. For equally obvious reasons you don't say how you announced your decision to "tear down" the blog by posting and reposting what you described as "trash" so as to interfere with everyone on the blog. In the same kind of senseless acting, you decided you would demand everyone's attention that day by simply posting and reposting so no one else could.

I don't use those words now, idiot child - although you haven't changed since then. You still throw your filth around freely - I don't. You remain a vile, filth-spewing idiot child who demands attention constantly. You know nothing, you say nothing of value and you freely admit your bigotry - as any idiot child would.

Now - if that makes you feel better, good for you. I'm returning to the subject of the thread and will let you freely spew your nonsense until finally someone tells you simply to go to hell and blocks you.

10:04 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

As always a Coward calls people out in a way that is ridiculous trying to make himself feel or look manly. I have done to try to fullfill my part but Stains hasn't once done a single thing to show himself. ASk Rick he has the e-mail with a picture. He has more info on me and my site is unblocked. Stains keeps sending this form to fill out so that he can "kick my ass". To funny.

Does anyone actually believe this guy? Stains come out and play for once.

10:05 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

HCB--I appreciate your efforts in getting your ideas across so eloquently in a room where, in the middle, there is a child throwing a tantrum, ripping off his clothes and screaming at the top of his lungs for everyone to notice him. All the while he is saying he is well-behaved and has something really important to say.

I concur with you about the Arab Knesset visits to Leb and syria...

10:08 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

It's okay Stains, you said allot more than that.

I'll be here always, I will continue to tear at you. I will show everyone how much of a pussy you are.

10:09 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Oh Doc your confused, I don't care if yo like my views or not. I am not upset, Stains makes me laugh at his cowardness. You're his little support person, his friend. It's cute and understandable becasue your both cut from the same gene pool. your yellow and can't face living in a land you say you love becasue of the fighting and you won't have the same freedoms and money. Stains is just plain and simple a coward.

10:14 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

I don't lose sleep over people like you two, it makes me feel good about not being affraid to face a group of people. I sit at my desk, taking care of business and in between I get to call Stains out for what he is. I get paid to laugh at you people.

10:16 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Hey Stains why does your blog say Clearwater Live? You said you lived in the orlando area. I know ther not that far apart but what city do you live in? Sending me on goose chases I see. See you such a Stain that you cna't even be truthful about what city your in. Oh fly here and I'll have you on your ass. Ya know what I would be, laughing my ass off that I believed a person like you would be a man. And wasted money on it too.

10:25 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Thanks, Doc - and nicely put.

Idiot children tend to bore themselves after a while. Or they get hoarse and worn out.

I really wish someone with some news outfit would ask Israel if it isn't a good idea to be talking with the Lebanese PM and parliament. I assume the US is talking - Lebanon certainly isn't our enemy (I think I'm right, there). And, it seemed the UN was talking to the PM - in fact, I think I remember a picture of Messrs Sinora and Annan walking through Beirut. Finally, I think I'm right that the Lebanese army is going to be working with the "international force." Given all those circumstances, I would think Israel would want to be in the middle of conversations - not condemning a meeting.

But that's the trouble with extremists on both sides. Extremists make up their minds and nothing will change it. So, "all jews must die" and, "islamic fascists want to kill us" and "the war on terror is a defining moment in this century." And, the war on terror is a battle about which ideology - "Islamic" or, I guess, Judeo-Christianity - will prevail.

That kind of inflammatory talk and the resulting extreme actions is the root of all the trouble. We lose sight of what we're talking about when we talk about "they are going to kill us." Or "they want what we have." Now we don't talk about who these "Islamic Fascists" really are - we simply use the term as a buzz word to spread fear. And then we talk about how to kill the people of whom we are afraid. But we never talk about why we are afraid or if, even, there's something to be afraid of.

But - remember how Cassius Clay was demeaned when he became Muhammad Ali. And "Malcolm X". And so many others. We labelled them "treasonists" or "murderer" or worse. Now we label them "terrorist" and justify everything else as a result. We willingly give up constitutional guarantees to salve our fears. It is an outrage and the worse possible insult to our forefathers and those who fought in the revolutionary, civil and world wars. An absolute insult to those who truly did fight for our freedoms.

10:34 PM  
Blogger Emil , Jerusalem said...

Good evening to everybody.

I would like to clarify the issue :

There is no law forbidding visits to Arab countries. There is a law forbidding visits to countries hostile to Israel.

For example , Egypt , Jordan , Morocco , Mauritania , Qatar , Oman and Tunisia aren't considered as hostile and we have diplomatic relations at various levels ( full relations with Egypt , Jordan & Mauritania ).

Another interesting example is Bahrain . We still don't have dip. relations but Bahrain (also UAE, Yemen) aren't considered hostile.

But Syria , Iraq , Lybia , Sudan and Lebanon ( hope for the quick change for the latter) are hostile to Israel , and Israeli citizens aren't allowed to go there.

Iran isn't an Arabic country but it is hostile.

So going to Syria without the special permit from the govt. law attorney is a clear law violation.

Unfortunately , mr. Azmi Bshara doesn't care about social rights of Arab citizens of Israel which voted for him. Hamas , Hizballa etc. - those are his friends. Even Walid Jumblatt described him as a syrian agent.

10:56 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

HA HA HA HA, Stain you're to funny. When you get home tongiht look into the mirror, the image in front of you is sad. Please don't raise your kids in your ways, I would hate for my kids to have to grow up with even more stains in the world. Let your kids grow up to know honor and strenght.

Now keep hiding, it does make you look so cool and out spoken.

Stain, coward to all and man to none!

10:59 PM  
Blogger kevin said...

HCB I never said that talking to anyone or even stating your opinion is treason. But aiding the enemy is and by taking that note and giving it to the north after the cameras were turned off. Along with other activity's that she did she did aid the enemy. This is the last post about Jane Fonda if you wish to have a debate on her e-mail me.
As far as the article I would have to say I think that is a bad law but if it is a law then they should have worked to change it not just break it. I don't think the seat belt law in this country is right the government should not protect me from my own stupidity but I do not have the right to pick and chose which laws I will obey and which I will break.

11:13 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

Kevin, by breaking the law with that much PR, you shed light on the issue and potential for reform. I dont think a nice conversation in the corner is going to do that.

Emil, Lebanon was not hostile to Israel before this latest conflict. In fact, Israel was hostile to Lebanon in the name of HZ. Although HZ is part of the Leb govt, they do not have the same agenda.

This reminds me of an incident in the mid 1990s, where the Lebanese and Israeli contestants in the Miss Universe contest were caught chatting with one another, and there was a big hoop-la about it...everyone had their panies in a bunch because they were conversing...I really dont think there was potential for treason in that incident, it was just bad PR on both sides...

And the cycle continues...if Israel is so worried about treason, send a Jewish Knesset member to monitor conversations...again, it has nothing to do with treason and national security, but rather maintaining the wall of hatred and misunderstanding between two enemy nations. So what. Who better to be an ambassador from Israel than a fellow Arab.

11:34 PM  
Blogger kevin said...

I do agree that some times to draw attention to a bad law it needs to be broken. Also to have a law heard in the supreme court on if it is within the constitution. But as a member of parliament he should have tried to follow the law when that did not work he could have gone to the press. Breaking the law to change it should always be the last resort. Otherwise anyone that was arrested could clam they were trying to change the law.

11:50 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Agreed Kevin - we'll leave it that we disagree on Jane Fonda.

And the seat belt law - we agree on it in all respects. However, it is not such an important law - it is an unnecessary intrusion but it is not such that it seriously threatens anything important. On the other hand, pre-civil rights legislation (and since) we have had "civil disobedience" as I'm sure you know. That disobedience arose when people who had been told to "work within the system" found nothing worked. Trying to work "within the law" to change such laws as were involved there (poll taxes, for example) just had no effect. The people who had made those laws were the majority and the majority wasn't about to change them. But, as the US Supreme Court determined, the minority are also protected. So - the "civil disobedience" began as criminal acts in which people simply said they were not going to abide by the law that so fundamentally affected them. And now, people can no longer imagine laws that required "colored" to "seat from the rear" of the bus or drink from water fountains labeled "colored" or wait in "colored" waiting rooms. Those fundamental changes came from challenging existing laws - not from abiding by them and working within them for change.

But, I am intrigued by Israel's reaction to the MK's visit while Haaretz, for example, is publishing some articles that are not very complimentary. Articles I would think could be interpreted as "giving aid and comfort to the enemy."

11:57 PM  
Blogger Doc said...

Well, kevin, you have a point. I cannot assume Arab Knesset members are acting to change the law or are really being treasonous. I dont know. But I really dont think Israel will be amenable to going through the courts to change a law they just most recently implemented. You may be thinking from a western point of view that may not be as effective in addressing this important issue. Being brazen may be more effective in this case.

And I really dont know the social and political nuances of Arab Knesset members in relation to Jewish parliament members.

But how do you expect to have dialogue and solve national crises and improve neighboring relations, when one of your parliament members (whether Arab or not) is NOT allowed to talk with the other country? As I said before, its like a prison with limited visiting rights. Arab members in the parliament represent Arab-Israeli citizens who elected them. I think Jewish members of parliament should take advantage of this window to start dialogue and improve relations. Their position is so counter-intuitive.

12:01 AM  
Blogger Sam said...

Well Kids my day is done, Friday's are great casue I'm off by 2ish.

Hey Stain try not to man up or anything. Don't follow through with your word, oh ya "your word". My bad, your just a Stain and have no word. Just a mark and smell left in a place we don't talk about.

12:05 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

And, may I add to what Doc says, Kevin? It IS a law, apparently, and if it's broken, I don't suggest the members shouldn't be arrested and tried for the violations. That, in fact, was the point of the "civil disobedience" - get it before the courts and out of the legislature and public opinion. The violations should be heard and disposed with under the Israeli constitution. The issues will be presented and the court will decide if the law is constitutional. Obviously, there will be a much larger audience than simply the Knesset in that case and it may either bring clarity to the law, cause the law's repeal or harden the law.

I agree with you that it should not be a defense that "I am trying to bring about change." And I certainly think Israel can pass whatever laws Israel considers appropriate. But I don't think it works to say, simply, we'll abide by it and work within the law.

12:08 AM  
Blogger Bryansaid said...

Kevin, hcb, Doc, very interesting exchange. Enjoyed it very much!

4:26 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

As we know, things go wrong when the leaders go wrong. Bad decisions beget bad decisions and dishonesty spreads from the personal to the public. That's especially true when there's a lot of money around. Then - when the dishonesty is discovered, the dishonest person reacts badly and starts to look for ways to divert attention from himself to something else - a "war" perhaps. So, here's an AP story from Saturday afternoon:

JERUSALEM - The president is being questioned on sexual harassment and wiretapping charges. The former justice minister is standing trial on accusations of sexual misconduct. The prime minister is being investigated for possible foul play in real estate deals.

An unrelenting wave of corruption scandals — which many blame on an increasingly selfish political culture — has further disillusioned Israelis already furious with their leaders over the devastating war in Lebanon.

“It’s too much,” former lawmaker Yossi Sarid said, adding that he feared Israel was “becoming a sort of Sodom.”

1:58 AM  
Blogger HCB said...

And yes - I am fully aware that Arafat was as corrupt and incompetent a "leader" who has trod the sands of the mideast. He also is a good object lesson when it comes to assessing leaders. He was so selfish that he sold out the people he pretended to lead for his personal gain and ego. It is the people like Arafat and others who turn their positions of trust into positions of personal gain who are to blame for so much misery.

2:22 AM  
Blogger Bryansaid said...

Jon Meacham: The Pope, Islam and holy war

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14866559/site/newsweek/

3:55 PM  

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