Sunday, August 20, 2006

For the record

Israel broke the cease fire last night by launching a commando operation in the Beka'a Valley. Will the American people remember Condelezza's words as the UN resolution was being passed last week? She said "now we will know who really wants peace."

117 Comments:

Anonymous RBT said...

You should hear what the Isreali propaganda machine is spitting out over here (Quebec).

Horrendous gut-wrenching lies. The unrelenting Isreali aggression against the Lebanese people, a free people, is making myself and friends, Hesbollah sypathisers. One can only applaud their will to defend their land from the ongoing IDf land-grabs in the region.

The Lebanese and Arabs' only mistake so far is to not have as strong a propaganda machine as the Isrealis. One can only hope this inequality will someday be balanced, and people will see the truth trough Israel's paid-for veil.

Godspeed. I can only hope the responsible parties within Isreal will be dragged before LaHague for the horrendous war crimes they are perpetrating every day, even since the ceasefire!
Savages.

2:20 AM  
Anonymous RBT said...

You should hear what the Isreali propaganda machine is spitting out over here (Quebec).

Horrendous gut-wrenching lies. The unrelenting Isreali aggression against the Lebanese people, a free people, is making myself and friends, Hesbollah sypathisers. One can only applaud their will to defend their land from the ongoing IDf land-grabs in the region.

The Lebanese and Arabs' only mistake so far is to not have as strong a propaganda machine as the Isrealis. One can only hope this inequality will someday be balanced, and people will see the truth trough Israel's paid-for veil.

Godspeed. I can only hope the responsible parties within Isreal will be dragged before LaHague for the horrendous war crimes they are perpetrating every day, even since the ceasefire!
Savages.

2:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think it was obvious from the outset, who was for and who was againt peace.

peace is not synonymous with occupation, peace is not synonymous with everyday barrages of massacres and terror in the Palestinian occupied territories and moreover peace is not synonymous with breaches of international law including 40+ UN resolutions and over and above, war crimes against humanity.

Hence as evident as it gets, for Israel, a terrorist state, to commit crimes against peace...speaks for itself.

So Rice can eat her words along with Bush, Blair and Adolf Olmert who by the is so desperate to gain some face back but instead shot himself in the leg....again!

2:29 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

Why am I not surprised that Israel could find a rationalization for attacking inside Lebanon again.

What will U.S. reaction be? Simple...there won't be one!

3:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1701 calls for HA to disarm and the Israeli prisoners to be released immediately.
Has this happened? Why not? Why is Lebanon violating 1701? Does Lebanon not want peace?

3:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Will HZ disarm, hell no, will Iran and Syria stop suppling arms, hell no, will they return the two Israel soilders unconditionaly per the UN resolution, NO NO NO, do I hear anything about this, HELL NO, I don't hear Rick,HB,hcb,rbt,chris baker or any other s call HZ to the carpet. Do any of you even think about what will become of Lebanon if HZ gains total power, lets just say if you like your freedom to publish this website you better get the hell out before they control the lebanese gov.! You guys better wake up! Remember that finger pointing is easy, don't get me wrong I TRUELY HOPE for a free Lebanon but I am afarid all this finger pointing at Israel plays right into HZ hands and when everybody relizes this it will be too late, I sure hope I am wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bill USA

4:01 AM  
Blogger Lilu said...

The Israeli rationalisation for the Baalbeck strikes is that it was to stop an arms shipment from Iran/Syria to HZ. I wasn't there so I can't say whether there really was a shipment or not.

But without any of us having any proof, it is much easier to call Israel a liar than to believe HZ really was replenishing its weapons stash (and gee, why on earth would they wanna do that if there's a ceasefire?), isn't it.
I'm just wondering - suppose the IDF was right this time? suppose there really was an arms shipment coming from Syria/Iran? what would you say then? I'm just wondering. That would, of course, be a breach of 1701, prior to the IDF breach ("so that there will be no weapons without the consent of the government of Lebanon and no authority other than that of the government of Lebanon"). This might also be the time to remind all of you that HZ recalled its agreement to abide by 1701 right after it was authorized by the governments of Israel and Lebanon, and to again reiterate what I was saying before (that everyone seemed to ignore) about the government of Lebanon being in contradiaction of that very cease fire agreement earlier this week, when they agreed HZ will not be disarmed (following HZ pressure). But no one was crying out breach then, were they... I guess we're sticking to our semantics again - and we support whoever suits us best. HZ does what they like, but they're the ones 'we need to find a way to communicate with' - while the IDF is the one that is against peace, the bad guy, regardless of circumstances.
Just because HZ didn't fire a rocket, doesn't mean they (nor the Lebanese government for that matter, seeing as they let HZ call the shots for them) are for peace. That's what I've been trying to tell you, and warn you of, in the past days.
But I guess it's back to the war, and back to the bias.

Muhammad Hiader, an HZ rep in the Lebanese parliament, said: "Hizbullah will not necessarily remain committee to the ceasefire, as this is a breach of UN Resolution 1701". When were they committed to the cease fire exactly? back on Wednesday, prior to the commando operation in the Bekaa, Sheikh Naim Qassam said on al Manar: "the UN decision does not obligate us and it does not have weight with us." But you all seemed to dismiss that, I guess if it ain't IDF it deserves no attention.

I really would like to know - imagine for a sec that there really was an arms shipment from Iran/Syria to HZ last night. What would you say about it?

4:42 AM  
Blogger i care said...

So show the proof!
If there were weapons, Isreal should have proof with all the technology they have(drones flying over). Secondly, it is not up to Isreal to use cowboy actions going in themselves. What happened to taking the proof before the UNSC to properly account for this. Anyway, they were really attempting to either kidnap or assassinate Hz leader Sheikh Muhammad Yazbek.

5:00 AM  
Blogger Lilu said...

were they? please show me your proof.

By the way, no one said there wasn't proof - just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In military intelligence, there is occasionaly such a thing as classified information. It is quite possible there is no proof whatsoever and that IDF was just shooting for the fun of it - but as far as all of us civilians are concerned, and our own sources of information, there is as much a possibility that there is good proof that there was an arms shipment.

What happened to taking the proof of HZ cease fire breach before UNSC? the proof was right there and has been for days. I didn't see anyone do anything about it - I didn't see anyone say anything to the Lebanese government about their own cease fire contradiction with their agreement to HZ staying armed. Then again, maybe someone said something and we all just weren't told - but no one DID anything, and there's a damn good possibility this led to HZ resuming arms delivery from Iran. Again, HZ are allowed to run around as they please and do as they like. And that seems to be fine by everyone.
I do wonder what it would take before I see any of you admit there is no solution to HZ but to crack down on it (and don't go crying about Israeli militarism, there are lawful means to crack down on HZ, such as is done to criminals).

Someone told me hours before the cease fire was signed that it was a sham, it wasn't worth the paper it was written on. I really was hoping I would prove him wrong - but they minute HZ recalled their agreement to it, and the minute HZ got the Lebanese govt. to allow its armament, I knew that guy was right. That was Wednesday.

5:15 AM  
Blogger i care said...

The Resolution I read, did not address the immediate disarmament of HZ. It is ridiculous to think they will disarm quickly. It took Isreal 18 years to comply with 425. From the ground anyway. They obstructed Lebanese air and navel space since 2000. Would we allow it? Isreal lies lies lies!!! It is so disgusting to the core. Not to even mention what they do to the Palestinians on a daily basis. All in "self defense". Please!

5:18 AM  
Blogger i care said...

The locals speaking about it is my proof. I know someone from the area which spoke to family. Also you can check out:

electronicintifada.net/v2/printer5579
Check out caption"They are here again"
This backs up what my freinds family spoke of. It is such a joke among the Lebanese, Isreals lies.

But go on blaming Hez for the last Isreali incursion, if that is your reality.

5:26 AM  
Blogger i care said...

And, as an American, I am sickened at the argument "Syria and Iran supply Hez". SO WHAT!!! America funds and arms Isreali autrocities and aparthied. Look at the pictures of the civilians we killed with our funds and arms. Their bodies burnt, shredded, bloodied. Of course censored in American media. Thank God we can see the truth on the internet. I am sickened to the core my country supports it.

5:30 AM  
Blogger Julie said...

Oh - Americans remember. Americans always knew the answer, at least the Americans who aren't running the governemnt.

5:35 AM  
Blogger Julie said...

lilu
Lebanon said NOW is not the time to disarm Hizballah, they did not say they won't. Don't twist it. They were also to deploy their army immediately, which they are doing. There was an immediate ceasefire, which Isarel violated the day it started.

As for today? I read they dropped commandos by helicopter, with vehicles, 70km into Lebanon near a Hizballah members office. They then claimedto be the Lebanese army, when asked by Hizballah who they were. Then the fighting broke out. Then under cover of airplanes, after a couple of missile strikes, they left.

How did Iran and/or Syria get the weapons in there, via a bombed bridge and over destroyed roads? Or perhaps they loaded it onto a shipment of humanitarian aid, because Lord knows ALL aid organizations are Hizballah wannabees.

C'mon, get real. We all kmow what this was about. They made no secret of the fact that they were going to continue to go after Hizballah's leadership until they're dead. Someone should have said something right then, but no one did.

Yet another green light.

5:44 AM  
Blogger Lilu said...

We're not talking about the Palestinians now, i care. We are discussing the current cease fire breach. That is one of the issues we are facing, but this is another. Please do not sidetrack. Also, I'm actually not talking about justification of any cease fire breach - I'm asking who are you to judge the IDF.

And if you REALLY wanna bring up the subject of images of civilians burned and shredded, as well as the subject of palestinians, as well as the subject of the internet, as well as the subject of what is censored by the media, you can watch the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFoLYXzkEyU

As for the resolution:

"PP5. Welcoming the efforts of the Lebanese Prime Minister and the commitment of the government of Lebanon, in its seven-point plan, to extend its authority over its territory, through its own legitimate armed forces, such that there will be no weapons without the consent of the government of Lebanon and no authority other than that of the government of Lebanon..."

"OP3. Emphasizes the importance of the extension of the control of the government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory in accordance with the provisions of resolution 1559 (2004) and resolution 1680 (2006), and of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, for it to exercise its full sovereignty, so that there will be no weapons without the consent of the government of Lebanon and no authority other than that of the government of Lebanon"

"OP8. Calls for Israel and Lebanon to support a permanent ceasefire and a long-term solution based on the following principles and elements:
...assets and weapons other than those of the government of Lebanon and of UNIFIL as authorized in paragraph 11, deployed in this area, full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon...
...pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of July 27, 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese state....no sales or supply of arms and related materiel to Lebanon except as authorized by its government..."

"OP14. Calls upon the Government of Lebanon to secure its borders and other entry points to prevent the entry in Lebanon without its consent of arms or related materiel.."

"OP15. Decides further that all states shall take the necessary measures to prevent, by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels or aircraft,
(a) the sale or supply to any entity or individual in Lebanon of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, whether or not originating in their territories"

This last paragraph highlights arms shipments - such as the alleged arm shipment that preceded the commando operation.

Immediate disarmament? can we go back to paragraph OP8 of the resolution? "pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of July 27, 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese state".
The Lebanese cabinet later agreed with HZ they will not disarm period, not that they will not disarm in the following week. This is clearly in contradiction of 1701, no denying there. Some may even say - a breach. You should also differantiate between disarmament and re-armament. It is one thing to take time to get rid of the weapons you have, it is a whole other thing to get new weapons (but of course we are yet to see concrete proof that is what was happening).

Julie, if NOW is not the time to disarm HZ, when is? one week? two weeks? two years? ten years? I didn't hear the Lebanese govt. decide on a date. They wont disarm now - whose to say they will ever disarm?
I also never said anything about taking advantage of humanitarian aid. I have no idea how the shipment was coming through if at all. Then again, neither do you.

Let me ask you this - if HZ start firing rockets into northern Israel now, would you say it is justified? would you say that it is legitimate, since Israel breached the cease fire?

5:55 AM  
Anonymous mtvessel said...

US, UK and Israel “conspiracy theory”

Hi All, the invasion of Lebanon has been planned by US Republican (not American people) 2 years ago before the abduction of 2 Israel soldiers. It always in Bush, Dick Chaney and Israel ambition to destabilize Middle East in particular Iran, Syria, Hez and Hamas. So there is no question about the release of 2 Israel soldiers and to disarm of Hez. In fact US and Israel have been waiting for Hez to make the slightest mistake to happen for them to punish Hez, Lebanon while blaming Iran and Syria at the same time. “It is a conspiracy theory by Bush, Dick Chaney and Republican (Zionist). (Blair is the stupid follower)

Please remember, there are thousands of Lebanese and Palestine’s are still in Israel prison. Hez will release the 2 Israel soldiers only if Israel agrees those prisoners (women and youth) in exchange.

I am sorry if my comments could hurt Lilu, Carmel and Bush blind supporters. This is what really happened that world communities need to know.

See Link http://respectuk.blogspot.com/

5:58 AM  
Blogger Lilu said...

George Galloway.. the man who said on Al Jazeera that dividing the people of Lebanon from the people of Syria was a shameful act?

Clearly a man quite in tune with the majority of the Lebanese people.

http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1228

6:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

God bless lebanon!

God bless its beautiful and peace loving people!

Go through the pages of history and you will find very powerful empires, you will find very powerful men. But, where are they? they are gone! their chapter is closed.

And so will be this one. But the people of Lebano will be here. The flowers will bloom in spring and live will go on.

God bless the people of Lebanon!

This too shall pass...

7:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm sorry for those who are not bilingual but this article would be "lost in translation" if I post it in English.

El pueblo hebreo –un pueblo excepcional que ha dado a la humanidad algunos de sus genios más ilustres-, ha cultivado a través de su historia el arte peculiar de hacerse odiar.

Donde quiera que asienta sus reales, precedido de la leyenda negra –la entrega de Cristo al suplicio- se organiza en núcleos exclusivos y excluyentes, crea una sociedad dentro de la sociedad que lo recibe, crea un estado dentro del estado cuando no intenta apropiarse o se apropia del estado, incluso de un imperio por vía del lobbysmo: los grupos de presión que dictan su política a parlamentarios y mandatarios.

A la corta y a la larga se hacen acreedores del rechazo social y nacional, los acosan, los martirizan y en el mejor de los casos los expulsan. El denominador común de tanto odio podría ser la intolerancia mundial contra minorías preteridas, pero tanta intolerancia mundial y tanto odio, tanta aversión a los judíos, al pueblo hebreo, quizás no están mal fundadas y quizás el pueblo hebreo sea el común denominador que genera, provoca, funda la intolerancia de la cual se hace víctima. Los odiaban en Rusia, en Alemania, en Polonia, en Francia y en España. En Argentina el antisemitismo es el pan nuestro de cada día y paro de contar.

Durante la segunda guerra mundial ocurrió el holocausto, perecieron 60 millones de personas, 20 millones de rusos entre ellas y 6 millones de judíos. La industria cinematográfica norteamericana en manos de judíos produjo multitud de películas en las que el holocausto es solamente el holocausto de los judíos, prescindiendo de la muerte de 55 millones de seres humanos que por no ser judíos no eran gente. Es el efecto sinécdoque, figura de dicción en que la parte está por el todo.

Sólo Alemania había borrado de la faz de la tierra a millones de judíos en campos de trabajo forzado y hornos crematorios. Pero no le cabe toda la culpa.

En la destrucción del gueto de Varsovia y el aplastamiento de Polonia hubo responsabilidades, complicidades repartidas entre la Rusia stalinista y las democracias occidentales.

La Francia colaboracionista entregó el 80 por ciento de sus judíos a los nazis, el pueblo italiano en cambio los protegió, no sin que perdiera un 20 por ciento.

Un general alemán al mando de la guarnición de Asís, no un nazi, salvó la vida de centenares de judíos y se negó a dinamitar la ciudad cuando se lo exigió el alto mando hitleriano, declarando ciudad abierta o ciudad hospital a la patria de san Francisco, el dulce autor del poema “Cántico de las criaturas”.

El término ciudad abierta que se aplicó también a Roma e inspiró al cineasta Rossellini una de las joyas de la cinematografía mundial, equivale un poco a ciudad no beligerante cedida al enemigo sin combate para evitar bombardeos.

Cinco años después de la segunda guerra, el general alemán de Asís, cuyo nombre no recuerdo y debería recordar, fue recibido como un héroe en olor de multitudes.

A los dos generales alemanes que se negaron a dinamitar París por orden del mismo Hitler no les fue tan bien. Se escribió un libro que los hizo famosos, ¿Arde París?, pero nunca fueron reincorporados al ejército y hasta fueron tachados prácticamente de traidores. Cosas veredes, Sancho.

Finiquitada la segunda guerra mundial todos tenían a los judíos colgados del alma, pero nadie sabía que hacer con ellos. Se habría podido crear un estado judío en la riviera francesa o en la Baviera alemana, algo que tanto se merecían franceses y alemanes como castigo por sus crímenes, pero las cosas no ocurrieron de esa manera.

Allí, en oriente, estaba la tierra prometida que los judíos habían arrebatado a los cananeos tres mil años antes y que ahora arrebatarían a los palestinos con el concurso de las grandes potencias y la bendición de las Naciones Unidas, que es un poco la misma cosa.

La caída del imperio turco, el Imperio Otomano, a raíz de la primera guerra mundial puso en manos de franceses e ingleses algunas provincias árabes del cercano oriente a las cuales dividieron antojadizamente en cuatro partes, Siria, Iraq, Líbano y el mandato inglés, el “British mandate” (1922-1948).

Este mandato estaba compuesto por los territorios que ocupan la actual Jordania y la Palestina propiamente dicha, dividida en dos por el Jordán e integrada hoy por Israel, la franja de Gaza y Cisjordania. De acuerdo con el primer censo elaborado por los británicos en 1922, la “población de Palestina era de 752.048, de los cuales 589.177 eran musulmanes, 83.790 judíos, 71.464 cristianos y 7.617 de otras religiones.

Los datos de 1922 se refieren a ambos lados del río Jordán, al menos para los no judíos. Tras el segundo censo de 1931, la población había aumentado hasta los 1.036.339 habitantes, de los cuales 761.922 eran musulmanes, 175.138 judíos, 89.134 cristianos y 10.145 de otras religiones.

No hubo más censos, pero las estadísticas se conservaron registrando los nacimientos, las defunciones y la inmigración. Algunos datos como la inmigración ilegal sólo se pueden calcular de forma aproximada. En 1945, el estudio demográfico mostraba que la población era ya de 1.764.520 habitantes, comprendiendo 1.061.270 musulmanes, 553.600 judíos, 135.550 cristianos y 14.100 de otras religiones”. Paradójicamente, el “feroz” Imperio Otomano había protegido durante siglos a sus minorías y las había obligado a vivir en paz.

En cambio durante el mandato británico se desarticuló la convivencia. Palestinos y hebreos se organizaron en bandas terroristas y se mataban alegremente unos a otros. Cobró fuerza el zionismo que aspiraba a la creación de un estado de los judíos dispersos por el mundo en Palestina y aspiraba y aspira a la dominación mundial.

Inglaterra se oponía a la inmigración judía a Palestina porque apostaba al petróleo de Arabia saudita y lo pagó caro.

En 1946, el Irgún, una organización al mando de Menachen Begin –futuro premio Nóbel de la paz- voló el Hotel King David de Jerusalén, el cuartel general de la administración británica, matando a 92 personas, la flor y nata de sus oficiales. Los británicos, “viendo que la situación se les iba de las manos” anunciaron inmediatamente su “deseo” de finalizar el mandato y procedieron a su retirada en mayo de 1948.

Ante la inminente retirada de las tropas británicas, las Naciones Unidas, en su resolución 181 de noviembre de 1947, echaron leña al fuego proponiendo formalmente la partición del territorio y la creación de dos estados, uno árabe palestino y otro judío. “Inicialmente se trataba de una disputa entre dos movimientos nacionalistas por un mismo territorio.

Estos dos movimientos eran muy desiguales. El árabe palestino era un movimiento autóctono equiparable a los de los países vecinos, que reivindicaba el derecho a la libre determinación.

El otro era un movimiento exógeno, europeo y de inspiración colonialista; que reivindicaba la reunificación de los judíos dispersos en la tierra de sus ancestros, y era totalmente ajeno a la realidad del lugar. Los primeros pasos del conflicto fueron propiciados por el colonialismo europeo que vio con buenos ojos el proyecto de colonización y modernización sionista.” (Art. de Isaías Barreñada. Tomado de Nación Árabe, nº 37, otoño 1998).

La partición era tan generosa que acordaba a menos de un 30 por ciento de la población, la minoría zionista, el 55 por ciento del territorio Palestino al oeste del Jordán. Ni los árabes ni Menachen Begin aceptaron el acuerdo. El terrorista y futuro premio Nóbel de la Paz, Menachen Begín, lo quería todo y los árabes también.

En mayo de 1948, la comunidad judía declaró unilateralmente la creación del Estado de Israel y desencadenó la primera guerra árabe israelí con la intervención militar de varios países árabes vecinos a favor de los palestinos. Al cabo de quince meses de resistencia heroica –y con apoyo extranjero, por supuesto- los judíos no sólo se afianzaron en su territorio sino que se expandieron hasta conquistar casi un 80 por ciento de Palestina. Jordania, por su parte, se anexó la Cisjordania y Egipto la franja de Gaza.

Pero el despojo no terminaba allí. La guerra provocó la estampida de unos 600 mil árabes Palestinos a los cuales no les fue permitido regresar a sus hogares. En cambio Israel se benefició del éxodo también masivo de la población judía que en los países árabes se vio obligada a escapar a causa del conflicto. Para ellos el exilio era diferente. En Israel sobraban casas para los recién llegados.

Los palestinos fueron a parar a campos de refugiados en los países limítrofes donde permanecen en parte todavía, pero lo peor no había pasado aún. En junio de 1967, durante la guerra de los seis días, pretextando motivos de seguridad y la necesidad del control de recursos naturales como el agua, los zionistas se apropiaron de las alturas del Golan sirio, la península del Sinai egipcio, y los territorios palestinos de Cisjordania y Gaza. El sueño del Gran Israel acariciado por los halcones zionistas se había hecho realidad. Otra vez Israel volvía al tamaño del reino de David y Salomón.

En cambio los palestinos se quedaban sin pito y sin flauta, con una población de 7,000,000 distribuida entre Cisjordania, Gaza, Israel, Jordania, Líbano, Siria y otras partes del mundo.

El cínico Moshé Dayán, embriagado por la fácil victoria sobre los árabes, declaró en una ocasión que los judíos no tenían solución para la cuestión palestina. Los palestinos –un pueblo irreductible- ya se habían fabricado su propia solución: la guerra sin fin.

pedro.conde@verizon.net.do

7:48 AM  
Blogger Chris Baker said...

The problem is that if the Hezbollah fighters won't disarm, what is the leadership of Hezbollah going to do about it? Lebanon has a very difficult situation where you have Hezbollah fighters sitting on some very modern and powerful weapons. Israel was able to weaken Hezbollah but not defeat them.

As a compromise to what the Hezbollah fighters would accept, Siniora's cabinet agreed to move 15,000 troops of the Lebanese military into south Lebanon. The Lebanese army should have as first task to prevent renegade Hezbollah fighters from attacking or invading Israel, firing off rockets etc. The issue of disarmament will have to come later.

However arms shipment entering Lebanon is a clear violation of the agreement although I'm not sure it is not up to Israel to unilaterally enforce the agreement without even informing the Lebanese government! The proper thing for Israel to do would have been to inform the Siniora government, not start a military provocation that could start the fighting again.

8:11 AM  
Anonymous mtvessel said...

Hi Lilu

I am not a Lebanese
I do understand how you feel. It is natural for one to defend his/her country, but for me, I will speak up if there is something fishy with the way the leader govern the country. We have to be neutral at all times in any situation. I knew that you are quite understandable of the whole situation in these conflicts. We could not agree more of what Bush administration have been enjoying doing by fabricating who ever they want. We can’t let irresponsible leaders to continue their ruthless act decade after decade for their personal gain and hatred towards the Muslims. We must not let our fear, hatred control over our emotion. We can’t resolve the problem with killing the innocents. There shall be no terrorist in this world if they are being treated fairly. There are many avenues that we can think of in order to resolve Middle East conflicts.

8:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Chris, I agree. However, the problem with HZ is that people are viewing the situation from a rather restricted point of view--that is the military one. You can disarm HZ in a number of ways, without first taking away its weapons. Although that is the ultimate goal, I think people are missing other opportunities to waken the legitmacy of HZ among the people of the south. True, they are supported by Iran, but without the local constituency (i.e. Lebanese), their organization will weaken...they have filled the void left by the Leb govt in terms of social services, a voice, defense, etc. If these needs are addressed (by the Leb. govt), then the role of HZ will ultimately decrease. HZ is from the people and supported by the people. Dismarming at this stage is not very wise and will accomplish nothing in the long run for the security of both Leb and Israel.

9:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Death to him who trespasses our sacred boundaries. There is no power powerful enough to prevent us from eating alive those who theaten our right to rule the land that was given to us by the power of God. Beware those who have crossed the border for you are fair game. The art of war should be employeed:


17. According as circumstances are favorable,
one should modify one's plans.

18. All warfare is based on deception.

19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable;
when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we
are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away;
when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

20. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder,
and crush him.

21. If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him.
If he is in superior strength, evade him.

22. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to
irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.

23. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.

24. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where
you are not expected.

II. WAGING WAR

6. There is no instance of a country having benefited
from prolonged warfare.

22. Though the enemy be stronger in numbers, we may
prevent him from fighting. Scheme so as to discover
his plans and the likelihood of their success.

23. Rouse him, and learn the principle of his
activity or inactivity. Force him to reveal himself,
so as to find out his vulnerable spots.

24. Carefully compare the opposing army with your own,
so that you may know where strength is superabundant
and where it is deficient.

25. In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch
you can attain is to conceal them; conceal your dispositions,
and you will be safe from the prying of the subtlest spies,
from the machinations of the wisest brains.

SUN TZU ON THE ART OF WAR

This my advice:

The enemy is superior for he has been given the state-of-the-art weapon financed by the tax payers who (most of them) do not agree with this war.

Do not face him in a convetional war. your best chance is a war of opportunities. don't forget this principle.


Until the victory always...

9:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How do I defeat a stronger enemy?

First of all, do not face him. Target the head of the serpent, and once it has been crushed, the serpent will move in erratic fashion.

NO enemy would be able to escape from us if we focus on his demise 100%. Who would be able to escape the trap of the intelligent men who, patiently and carefully, lay the trap?. No one. No enemy is strong enough or smart enough to escape from the tentacles of the men who focus on his demise. The depth of our intelligence should be deeper than the depth of our hatred and our passion.

If I wanted to target a particular man or group, I can’t see how they could escape.

9:33 AM  
Anonymous All 4 One & One 4 All said...

What has occured in the Bekaa Valley will pass not as an peace breaker. However, the slightest resistance will be considered as THE peace breaker and will be announced publicly throughout the entire globe.

Time and time again the UN is silent and afraid of condemning Israeli raids, but when people retaliate, they will be labeled as those who hate and those who are to blame.

9:37 AM  
Anonymous mtvessel said...

No one in this world is perfect. Somehow, someday, one will make mistake without his/her knowledge. You see others weaknesses, but do not see yours. An intelligent and humble person -

1. Does not abuse of his intelligence, supremacy and authority.
2. Respect his enemy and peoples around him regardless of race, religion, position and status.
3. can be a good leader
4. do not find fault with others
5. believe in diplomacy
6. respect his children, wife and his/her neighbour
7. Will not take things that do not belong to him/her.
8. does not blame others
9. is very peculiar about the language he use in public
10. do not berate others
11. Share his/her wealth with others especially to the needy.
12. do not label others
13. treat others the way they want to be treated
14. recognize his/her emotion either in negative/positive mode
15. Do not make decision on his/her emotion. And etc……


Unfortunately, we do not see current world leader’s posses and demonstrate of the above leadership character model. We will not be to witness peace, we elect the right person to be a good leader. You do not have use weapons to win the heart of world communities.

10:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lilu

are you dumb or what. did you not hear olmert the great's speech on the day 1701 was being ratified saying that noone had the right to question israel on it's actions? i mean common, wake up. i want you to know somehting. i'm a lebanese christian who was dead against HZ weapons beofre this war but since israel showed it's true premeditated murderous face i have been converted. i want lebanon to smuggle in as many anti tank, anti troop anti israeli anything to keep that scum off our land. we want peace we want to be at the beach and we don't want your fanatic government anywhere near us. give us what is ours and fuck off.

10:17 AM  
Blogger MERKOVA said...

Hey Lilu ....

I guess Israel can now bomb all areas of beirut since you said your HZ now. Your wish may come true. This war is not over yet:)
It just started. Your supporter iran and syria will be next.

12:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

20 August 2006 18:00 Home > News > UK > UK Politics

Bush is crap, says Prescott
Deputy PM criticises US handling of Middle East, condemning 'cowboy' President at private meeting
By Colin Brown, Deputy Political Editor
Published: 17 August 2006
John Prescott has given vent to his private feelings about the Bush presidency, summing up George Bush's administration in a single word: crap.

The Deputy Prime Minister's condemnation of President Bush and his approach to the Middle East could cause a diplomatic row but it will please Labour MPs who are furious about Tony Blair's backing of the United States over the bombing of Lebanon.

Article Length: 1178 words (approx.)

John Prescott has given vent to his private feelings about the Bush presidency, summing up George Bush's administration in a single word: crap.

The Deputy Prime Minister's condemnation of President Bush and his approach to the Middle East could cause a diplomatic row but it will please Labour MPs who are furious about Tony Blair's backing of the United States over the bombing of Lebanon.
Article Length: 1178 words (approx.)

1:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

merkova,

the world is not stupid, it's just greedy - you know what i mean.

btw, fitting id you chose

2:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

this is isreal -

2:28 PM  
Blogger Emil , Jerusalem said...

If you want peace you must prepare for war.

Do you think , that Israel should stay idle when Hizballa started to rearm ?!

3:47 PM  
Blogger Lilu said...

mtvessel, I am not at all supportive of Olmert's gang (except Livni) and what they did. Basically, they screwed up big time as far as everyone is concerned, and most people here also know it. Don't worry, Olmert will be dealt with internally in some form of another. I don't know how long it will take and how it will go about but it will happen - there is already talk of getting Halutz to resign. Everyone agrees there were so many screw ups here.

But that wasn't the issue I was addressing. It wasn't about justifying the IDF. I was talking about the double standards. HZ gets a pat on the head/slap on the wrist while on the IDF all hell breaks loose - when both are in breach and both are at fault. I saw warning signs last week when suddenly HZ was beginning to go back on its agreements, but no one else seemed to care. Bias is not going to give us peace, all responsible parties should be accounted for.
HZ was public about their change of tune, but no one said a word. IDF conduct an operation of which none of us really know anything, but the accusations and the outcries are quick to fly.

I have yet to get an answer to my questions - suppose there really was an arms shipment? suppose there is an arms shipment which has nothing to do with the commando operation? what would you all say then?
And would you consider an HZ attack on northern Israel now justified and legitimate?

Instead of answering me on those questions people reply to things I never said or asked - because they are so quick to jump to conclusions. This is exactly the problem, and the human issue to be addressed - people jump before they think. This has often been a problem in the Middle East - first yell and blame, then check the facts... but by then, everyone remembers only the yelling, regardless whether it is the truth or not. People have to be fair if we're going to get any dialog going.

3:48 PM  
Anonymous Manal said...

I guess she knows now!

3:54 PM  
Blogger HB said...

Lilu, you say:

"HZ are allowed to run around as they please and do as they like. And that seems to be fine by everyone."

Almost everyone in the Arab world sees this as a fiting description of Israeli military action over the past 50 years in Lebanon and elsewhere.

The solution is not military. I think everyone should know this by now. Instead of always asking what hz can do for you, ask what you can do for them. Why can't Israel, like every country in the world, defend itself from its own borders? Why can't Israel play their game? The Arab demands are simple and reasonable: Give back the prisoners, give back the land and do it so fast before something else comes up. It is a GOOD strategy, much smarter than the last one: answer the talking points and there will be no more room for discussion. Why is this so hard to understand? Prisoners and land. Meanwhile build support from the int'l community and many Arabs, maybe most. Then whatever happens after that i.e. the existential threat, all actions would be justified and winnable. We truly do not understand why this is not understood. Please explain.

3:59 PM  
Anonymous Ali said...

Hb is right, you Israelis accuse us lebanese of nuturing this environment. You think we like to live in a country with bombs, guns and generators?! Fuck that, so stop breathing down our necks already. Obviously we can't solve it through action-duh, have you seen our army??? It came straight out of MASH, we don't even have guns on our choppers. And really, I mean look how you guys lost your ass, you think we stand a chance???? Why don't you just help us out and give back this two bit shitty hill and a couple of terrorits whatever you want to call them. Why don't you frickin help us out for once instead bitching about your fears all the time. Do something just for once and build a little fuckin trust then if you still want to get rid of them we and the rest of the world will actually be able to help you.

4:23 PM  
Blogger HCB said...

Lilu,

It's the same with the US - do something stupid, make a mistake and it's magnified. Do something that appears to be stupid or mistaken and it's magnified. The Lebanese have been badly damaged by your air force and army. Unless the whole idea of Clausewitzian war and the interplay of governements in the Mideast and the United States is examined in excrutiating detail, bombing the airport and bridges made no sense. The justification for those bombings to people other than those directly involved is opaque. Israel appears to be a bully - rightly or wrongly - that's the appearance. The apparent idiocy is to do something in obvious violation of the cease fire.

For the sides now to argue the language of the resolution is pointless. It's kids saying "did so" and "did not." And it diverts attention from the bigger question. Which is, "how can this madness be terminated?"

Don't get trapped in the details. Look at the bigger picture. A couple weeks ago the anger was about the continuing bombing and total destruction. Now it's about breaching the cease fire. Understand the anger and let it go. Talk as you are so capable - about healing. Don't pick at the scab.

Howard

4:33 PM  
Anonymous mtvessel said...

Hi Lilu, I respect of your view and concern over the “arms shipment”, but that is based on assumption. However, we can’t simply invade any country as we wish without concrete evident. HZ will not attack northern Israel if their demands are met. Like HB said, release Lebanese prisoners and give back the land to Lebanon.

The conflicts can be resolved if all leaders involves demonstrate the following

1. Exhibit respects even we have nothing to gain form the relationship.
2. Exhibit flexibility and willingness to change
3. Tells the truth without fear
4. Accept feedback and truly hears what others say
5. Avoid “us vs them” thinking.
6. Show genuine concern for others. And etc…

I appreciate of your kind understanding and may god bless you.

5:23 PM  
Blogger Lilu said...

mtvessel, the assumption is mine and yours. It is not neccesarily an assumption of the IDF, they may hold their proof.

Guys, if only things were that easy, truly. If only the world was that perfect. We would just give up our stubbornness, Nasrallah would suddenly go mute and inept, and we'd all live happily ever after. The angels would sing and peace would prevail.
But it's not that simple. It never will be. Things are never that easy, especially in the Middle East. I have no faith in HZ, and no trust. I have no reason to have any trust in them. Until last week I had faith in the Lebanese government - but they have bended over for HZ again, just as they had before. History is repeating. With all that I know of HZ from the past, and all that I know of their doing this past week, I can't help but lose any faith that peace could be achieved with them. They are after war no matter what, it doesn't even matter whether Israel wants war too or not - they will have their war. So this is why the startegy of "give everything up and hope for the best, so that if you are in danger you will have justification" is problematic. Because the point is to try avoiding ever getting to the danger zone in the first place. Give back land, HZ will want something else. Give them prisoners (though at least some, like Samir Kuntar, have committed crimes against Israeli civilians on Israeli soil and therefore deserve to be in Israeli jail), they will come up with more reasons to fight, and they will just have more motivation because they see their way is working. When they declare they consider the very existence of Israel a danger, this shows they will never stop. You guys seem to think HZ operates on the same logic as you and I, if we just give them what they say the want they will have nothing to complain about and will simply go away. But they will always have a bigger agenda.
So the solution is waiting around for them to get to the final act?
The current Israeli government does not know how to properly deal with the situation. They make mistake after mistake. But the Israeli people want peace and quiet, and ultimately they have the power - we will find the person who can lead us towards that peace, I don't know how long this will take but we will find him. The Lebanese people want peace and quiet too - but HZ doesn't, and as we can see from the past days, ultimately HZ have the power. They manipulate the Lebanese government, they manipulate the Lebanese people.

I have no faith in Olmert and Peretz. But they can be replaced. I have no faith in HZ - and they're not going anywhere, because they don't want to and no one is willing to show them the door.

Israel giving up to HZ demands is not the solution - maybe it is the solution for HZ, but not for Israel. Military force is also not the solution, evidently. There should have been a third, alternative solution though - maybe Israel providing support and infrastructure to the Lebanese people to rival HZ and diminish support. I don't know, I'm not a politician or a diplomat.

We wont find a solution until we start being realistic. The Israelis need to understand they will have to give up land and probably return prisoners. The Lebanese need to understand they musy eliminate HZ from the scene, and that they probably wont get back every prisoner. Everyone will have to compromise - the Israelis will need to find a leader that is willing to be the bigger person, and the Lebanese will need to give up the insistent blind eye they seem to be turning to HZ's true motives.

6:23 PM  
Anonymous mtvessel said...

Lilu, fears, fears are holding back Israel to change. Did I mention flexibility and willingness to change? If Israel persists to continue with the old mindset, with military aggression, I am afraid; there shall be no solution to the problem. I believe, it is high time for Israel to change their mindset in handling the crisis.

No further comments and ideas from me.

7:01 PM  
Blogger Lilu said...

but what if the fears are legitimate? if they are justified?

Israel needs to grow out of its military mindset - but it is high time for Lebanon to change its HZ mindset too.

7:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you speak out against Israel and their provacations, in america, you are labeled a Hatemonger, anti-semite, racist and a list of many other adjectives.
Look at Mel Gibson, had a few drinks, made the mistake of driving and when pulled over blurted out some comments which from evidence seem factual, but he is being attacked in the media and public opinion by stating his opinion that the Jews have started all the wars in the world.

That is probably true, but true or not it is his opinion and now in america The land of the Free, what a laughable statement, freedom of speech has been forgotten and replaced with censorship, propaganda, lies and government sponsored terror and they are also manipulating the weather and playing god. No wonder the weahter has been so awful over the last several years, with the chemicals being sprayed in the stratosphere on a daily basis.
Whats next?

Oh yea!! I will probably be monitored now after making these statements since all computers and cell phones are being monitored.

7:23 PM  
Anonymous mtvessel said...

Lilu, a smart leader can change the situation from negative to positive. It is attitude to change, attitude is everything. HZ is smart, he can change according situation when the need arises. He has lots of followers, (not only in Lebanon, Syria and Iran) for him to consider of his reputation and integrity.

Self confident is the answer to fears. A smart leader would be able to tame a tiger. Sometimes, we have to exhibit reverse psychology to manage people.

7:53 PM  
Blogger mikealpha said...

The ceasefire is a joke, and has been ever since Hezb'allah refused to keep their promise to pull their armed forces back behind the Litani.

The French are a pathetic joke. The UN is equally ridiculous. Kofi is a clown. The Lebanese government and Army are only slightly less amusing than the French.

The only interesting question is how long it will take for round 2 start. My guess is not that long.

8:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for the insight lilu on res. 1701 which unfortunately for the Lebanese people does nothing, solves nothing and gives them nothing. The roots of the conflict should be addressed here not some solution seen number of times before put on paper lobbied by an Israeli ally and presented by a toothless tiger. Yet most seem to think this conflict began in July 2006 and not 1948.

"Denial, a psychological defense mechanism, is an unconscious mental maneuver that cancels out or obscures painful reality. We hear no evil, see no evil, and hence feel no pain or confusion. We don’t have to confront or change things that don’t exist." This is the mentality that plagues Israel today. Not just the people within the modern state of Israel but expatriate Israelis as well. For most in the Jewish state, Israel can and has done no wrong. The forcible removal of Arabs from their homes by British troops in 1947 and the subsequent occupation that continues today of Palestine was a war of independence, not a conquest. The 1982 Sabra and Chatila massacre were the result of an unpredictable action by a Lebanese militia that Israel had no knowledge of and couldn’t have done anything about, not a planned attempt to wipe out the Palestinian people or genocide. Now, the killing of some 1000+ innocent Lebanese civilians and bombardment of Maronite and Sunni regions including ports, wells light house, agriculture factories, the Red Cross, humanitarian aid convoys, Quana, not to mention the four UN observers, that have no relation to Hezbollah are actions to protect Israel’s very existence from a menacing terrorist threat that could wipe out Israel at any time, not war crimes.

Come on! Arms shipment!! Its pathetic , no body ever questions why the US supplies Israel with billions of dollars worth of fire power to commit war crimes and atrocities in the pretense of "self defense" but when Hezbollah gets arms from Iran to defend its land from Israeli occupation decades old we call them terrorists! Israel created Hezbollah and Hamas; they are merely resisting Israeli occupation, resisting the massacres of women and children in Gaza and now in Lebanon, and resisting a terrorist state's persistent control of the south of Lebanon and Gaza.

In Israel's claims of self defense, let's look at the definition more closely for a second. "Self-defense usually refers to the use of violence to protect oneself and is a possible justification for this otherwise illegal act" (Google's definition)

"Violence": really don't see how violence can pave the way for peace! Unless of course, you are a Bush, a Blair, or a Desperate Olmert. "A possible justification" hmm, yes, capturing two soldiers versus the brutal destruction of people and their nation. Yes quite justifiable! But my favorite…"Protect oneself": "The powers that be in Israel often use this as the justification for their massive armament and frequent military adventures. They portray Israel as a David amongst a Goliath; the Arab states. Insinuating the destruction of a small, weak Israel and Israel is incapable of defending itself. That is far from the reality. Israel is actually a massive power, not just in the Middle East but throughout the world. According to an article in the Christian Science Monitor from December 9th, 2002, David R. Francis notes that Israel has received approximately $3 billion a year in US foreign aid for many years now, two-thirds of which is for military support. According to the CIA World Fact book, its GDP (purchasing power parity) is approximately $154.5 billion, larger than Venezuela, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates. Israel spends nearly 8% of its GDP on military expenditures and has a total of roughly 2.46 million citizens fit for or already in military service. Compared with the Arab world, Israel far outguns the region especially when factoring in the reported 200 nuclear weapons they possess according to former Israeli nuclear technician John Crossman (a.k.a. Mordechai Vanunu.)" Denial plays a major role in Israeli foreign and internal policies, especially in regards to the Palestinian situation
The current assault on Lebanon is a prime example of Israeli denial. Hezbollah, at best, poses a minimal threat to Israel by having the capability of launching rockets in Israel’s general direction. They certainly post no threat to the existence of state. Israel on the other hand, responds, allegedly, to the kidnapping of two of its soldiers by launching a full scale war against a defenseless Lebanese nation that had no knowledge of or say in the kidnapping. We are meant to believe that Israel fire power and killing of more innocent women and children is justified? Maybe people with no moral and ethical principle or of course war and murder on their agenda. How can a country that justifies its immoral and unethical actions by the destruction of another country want peace? Israel is so powerful that it had the capability to cut Lebanon off from the world within 24 hours of the assault by imposing a naval blockade, bombing civilian air and sea ports, and taking out roads leading out of the country. Israel takes pride in attacking those it knows cannot defend itself against their superior firepower and know they have veto power in the UN Security Council through the United States to commit any atrocity they see fit. They have used this power for nearly thirty years now assaulting defenseless civilians and waiting for an opportunity of utmost weakness to invoke it’s “right to defend itself” usually from imaginary or miniscule threats. Be it the Lebanese civil war, economic and political collapse in the occupied territories, or currently in Lebanon following the removal of Syrian forces from Lebanon before Lebanon is able to build a professional army to defend itself.
Israel is far from defenseless. It has, and still does, commit atrocities, war crimes, and crimes against humanity with impunity. Israelis commonly use bombs, missiles, and other munitions that contain depleted uranium in the occupied territories and phosphorous as witnessed in Lebanon, which is a violation of the Geneva Conventions and international humanitarian law. But since when did Israel abide by any of them, including 40+ UN resolutions. But of course, we have to consistently repeat why res. 1559 was not abided by. The Israeli state has no regard for the human toll resulting from its military adventures on defenseless populations and fails to acknowledge any wrong doing or liability for the condition of devastated civilian infrastructures. Any time something is proposed accusing Israel of these gross and frequent violations of international humanitarian law, they cry foul and deny any wrongdoing while flooding the Israeli public with annihilation propaganda and censoring Israeli and foreign press from showing any pictures or videos or other media reports of or from the Israeli actions. I honestly doubt most in the Israelis public is currently aware of the humanitarian catastrophe in Lebanon. It is barely being told in the United States due to the pro-Israeli media. Denial, a psychological defense mechanism, is an unconscious mental maneuver that cancels out or obscures painful reality. We hear no evil, see no evil, and hence feel no pain or confusion. We don’t have to confront or change things that don’t exist.

It is quite clear from the start, this war is a pre planed war on the people of Lebanon by the Bush, Blair and Olmert administration, the latter to save his deteriorating career. The Bush administration's "war on terror" requires us to believe that the West must fight terror in Lebanon, West Bank, Gaza, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Africa, Asia and South America. According to Israeli spin, Lebanon is an "axis of terror" and the Jewish state is "fighting terror on all fronts". The Palestinians are, as always, caught in the crossfire between Israel's view of its place in the region and the Arab world's indifference to their plight. For Bush, it's black and white, with us or against us, terrorists and freedom…no shades of grey in between. After all let's not forget how 911 worked completely in Bush's favor. Hmmm

It’s a shame that you have no idea what your country is doing to you, it’s a shame how you have no idea how your country is brain washing you, it’s a shame that you cannot see the difference between what your country wants you to see and what you truthfully should. With all the media censorship there is little chance for people in Israel and the US to know what is really going on whether on the ground or the roots of the conflict which everyone seems to forget: Israeli occupation of Lebanese and Palestinian lands. "How long would Israel's war have been allowed to continue if American audiences had seen those charred bodies or dead babies? How long would most Western viewers have remained silent if they were exposed to the kind of images shown daily on the Arabic satellite channels? Might we then start to understand why they hate us -- and more usefully why we should hate ourselves?" You are arguing for the sake of an argument lilu because you have pledged to the allegiance of your country rather than to the truth.

What the western media and yours wants you to believe is that Hezbollah started this war. Yet the truth is staring at you in the face and yet you look the other way. The war is decades old and started with Israeli occupation of more and more land that does not belong to them. After the abduction of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, the Western world was bombarded with information about his background and family. He was humanized. But what of the countless Palestinians imprisoned without trial in Israel jails or the numerous Palestinian women and children regularly taken from their homes in the middle of the night? The Israeli army is a people's army; the Israeli state is founded on the principle of a freed people. By contrast, the Palestinian struggle for freedom is constructed as an illegitimate terrorist plot. In any other retelling of the imperial-colonial story across the 20th century, the Palestinians' struggle would be an honorable fight for freedom and independence. The suffering of the Palestinians is clearly now not worthy of examination. During the present crisis, it seems as if Israelis are the only victims of terrorism, that Hezbollah rocket attacks are unjustifiable aggression.

You cannot hold Hezbollah liable for the actions of the Israeli war machine. "Think of how your local court might consider the respective claims of these two nations if this were a domestic dispute between neighbors. Would a judge view with any sympathy a claim from a man demanding compensation from his neighbor for the damage done to his expensive sledgehammer after a destructive rampage through the neighbor's home, as well as for the loss of his reputation that followed the attack, as he found himself cast as the neighborhood pariah? Would it make any difference if it could be proved that his neighbor had sworn provocatively at him before he went on his rampage?"

The West's blank cheque towards Israel since 1948, primarily due to Holocaust guilt, can no longer excuse, justify and fund a supposed democracy that occupies a neighboring state and bombs its civilians.

You very well know lilu, as well as people like you, if you opened your eyes a bit wider and pull your head out of the sand to see the facts that are in front of you rather fictional claims without evidence that the west's and Israeli media portray, you would be writing this article instead of me.

8:55 PM  
Blogger mikealpha said...

Turkey has forced down and grounded a number of Iranian planes carrying missiles bound for Syrian airports near the Lebanese border. Of course there is no way those missiles could ever possibly end up in Lebanon because Iran, Syria and Hezb'allah, being all peaceloving and cuddly, would never ever violate a UN resolution. Only evil Israelis (and maybe demented powermad Americans) would ever do suchs things.

8:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Creating and perpetuating the belief of constant fear can be a political tool used by both sides. On the one hand Lebanese fear Israel wants to destroy it; on the other, Israelis feel that hz wants to destroy Israel. The reality is hz can only resist apart from some small scale kidnaping operations. Israel on the other hand has the power to completely level lebanon. You tell me which side has the most well-founded fear? Israel needs to change its policy from taking and destroying and giving and discussing. Arabs are always interested in negociations but the Israelis pull this "we don't negociate with terrrorists" speil all the time as if they are little angels. Bullshit. There are just as many crazy fanatic Jews as their are freaks on this side and in terms of damages Israel has done much more destruction than the Arabs could ever dream of inflicting. Hz wants recognition and fufill its purpose. Why are you guys so blind? You have to call their bluff and then defend, you have to isolate the fanatics by a surprise attack on their expectations. Israel's only hope for a sustainable future is to call the bluff. Then isolated military action might actually work, it might not even be necessary. But if you keep blurring everything by calling everyone a terrorist and playing a self-righteous spoiled child always asking Uncle Sam to give you more money to kill your neighbors then you know what, there's no hope for peace. Peace lies in Israels hands. Hz is nothing but a product of Israeli policies of humliation and goalaith style terrorism. If it wasn't hz, its al qaeda, hamas, plo, plfp, fatah, al aqsa, islamic brotherhood, etc etc etc, just a different expression of the same old shit, Israel's shit, Israel's mess. Israel owns this conflict and has always had the upper hand. Israel has always been the golaith in this conflict, and Israeli history books have been corrected on this point in the past, everyone in IDF land knows this and chooses to ignore it or deny it. Time to wake up people. Israel started this whole mess and at this point I think its the only party capable of outsmarting the other side and ending it.

9:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

lilu and every Israeli here, please explain the above so we can understand what you are thinking

9:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Arabs are willing to talk? Tell that to Sadat. Wait no you can't, he's dead, because he was an Arab who was willing to and for doing so, he was killed. Both sides need to take their blinders off. Arabs, Jews, everyone. Neither side is actually working for peace. It may just take another September 11th to wake up the US so that we finally exterminate the world of radical Muslims who seem to be pushing the envelope more and more all the time.

9:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 9:43: exterminate huh, remember a guy who used to talk like that? I'll give you a hint, he had a little moustache and his name starts with an H. Its sad really how much Israelis ruin people's lives and keep telling the world how important it is to remember what was done to the Jews so that it won't be repeated.

9:55 PM  
Anonymous common sense said...

MIKEALPHA: Do you have evidence for your ridiculous claims or are you just dreaming up some bullshit propaganda? State your source please, because i really don't understand how the Turkish army grounding Iranian planes did not make it on any major news network. By the way how exactly does one country "ground" another country's planes?

10:04 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

I don't know if there was a weapons shipment intended for Hez'bollah; I just know that I don't believe that was an act of self-defense. Such use of pre-emptive force threatens all societies for the implications it holds.

I don't know what the plans are for disarmament of Hez, nor do I know when the two Israeli soldiers will be released, let alone the hundreds of Lebanese being held by Israel.

I do know two things; since the cease fire, there has not been a Hez'bollah attack on Israeli soil, and; Israel has again attacked inside Lebanon. Yes, we do see who is "for" peace.

The next stop for the Israeli government is the nuclear facilities in Iran. The U.S./Israeli alliance will not be happy until there are no military threats. I call it "throwing the baby out with the bath water" since it will insure hatred of the United States for another generation.

There's your legacy, Dubya.

10:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

nice one anon 9:55

10:10 PM  
Blogger Chris Baker said...

Clearly Lebanon needs to acquire some very modern anti-aircraft guns to defend their air-space from their evil neighbor with their unauthorized over-flights, roque attacks etc.

10:35 PM  
Blogger Anon said...

The thing that annoys me is the bias that the resolution has, along with the frankly ridiculous requisites.

Hezbollah are to be dis-armed, whilst the Israeli’s have almost a blessing to re-arm, augment their destructive technologies and send their black-ops chaps across the border, as they see it, to undertake the words of 1701.

It is appalling that the international community and the UN do nothing to challenge Israel’s actions; when they are in the wrong they should be brought to task. Eh, Kofi? Afterall, that is only fair, and will prove that the world will not tolerate breaches of the peace no matter who the offending party may know in the US senate.

http://able-or-unable.blogspot.com/2006/08/blatant-disregard.html

Mortimer

10:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Excellent piece anon 8:55!!

11:30 PM  
Anonymous mike said...

The only peace isreal wants is a Peice of lebanon, and then some water, and then another BUFFER zone deeper into Lebanon. Then on and on till they have it all. This is only the first of many so called defensive moves.

11:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To all you dumb fucking Arabs, you need to relise Isreal is not your source of problems, the only people they have any bearing on are the in the west bank and gaza strip. How does that affect the rest of your Fucked up world. sunni killing shits "opps misspelled", religious extremists leaders running your daliy lifes because you have no backbone to create a real gov. and instead of trying to you want to blame Israel for all of your problems in the middle east. All I can say is that you deserve the religious nuts that run your part of the world untill you decide to get off your lazy asses and make something of yourselves, or is that Israels fault too, maybe the next time you can't shit you can blame the Israles, get real and stop listening to these bleeding heart loosers in Europe and America, because they go to bed free and safe ever night while you have to live with Islamic Nuts leading your lifes.

11:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

New UN resolution

Disarm US, UK & Israel.

2:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes "disarm America"Let religious Nuts control the world, F- Freedon, up with fashisum and lets bring back communists too, dumb asses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!like I say "you get what you work for and deserve"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Opps I was wrong, about 15% of the nuts in USA need to go and live in N.Korea or Iran and see if there ideas change, maybe we can trade them for N.Koreas's nukes. Works for me

3:22 AM  
Blogger Lilu said...

Indeed excellent piece anon 8:55, it's a shame though you were so quick to vent without proper research - especially about me.
You obviously don't know anything about my attitude towards the Palestinians, my own government, the US, or my relationship with media sources (for example, I understand from your accusations you think I get my info from Western TV news networks - well as I once mentioned, my TV has been disconnected for the past year, and I get my info through net media sources and other sources - some not related to the media at all). I wont say more on that, you do your own research about that.

Another problem with your piece is that you were so quick to react you never bothered to make sure you understand what you thought you were rebutting. I wasn't talking about the Israeli action being justified, I was talking about Israeli fears being justified. One is action, the other a feeling. One has to do with the military, the other with the people themselves. This is what is called a difference.

It was an interesting piece, anon, too bad it had very little to do with what I was actually saying/asking. But I guess it doesn't really matter who I am, I was just the first Israeli name that walked by.

All you open minded, level headed, dialog wishing and peace seeking folks out here, have a nice night now. I hope the true dialog and discussion come back to this blog some day, maybe then we can get productive again and actually achieve some understanding, which for the thousandth time, is the only place a peaceful existence begins. In the mean time, good luck everyone.

4:06 AM  
Blogger spunkIL said...

HZ just trying to get stronger again. it's obvious. that what he was doing for the last 6 years since Israel has left Lebanon. (the last war just proved it).
you think Israel will let them do it again?
if so - you are stupid.
real one.
no offence.

and beside - kidnapped soldiers still not back.
just for the record..

until then - I hope south lebanon will burn like hell.

4:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lovely dialogue... really. So well thought out and compassionate. Very healing and constructive.I just can't think of enough praise for the above comment because this person is so obviously intelligent,wise and insightful.

4:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Eyery country has the right to arm, otherwise disarm all over the world. Why such double standard?

5:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

spunkil,

the south may burn like hell but we all know, you included, that israels days are numbered. it's a failed project that will be a distant memory. i wonder where you children and grandchildren will flee to. when mighty america falls what do you think will happen to little dependant israel???? i want to point out that people don't have problems with jews it's with filthy israelis that world does not need or want.

7:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You realize that if America falls the world falls with it? Who funds the last research in medicine, weaponry, technology, etc? Without America, the world is a super model with no legs or arms.

7:24 AM  
Blogger MERKOVA said...

You dumb fuck muslims .....

No crazy dumb fuck muslim should be armed.

9:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Lilu,

I am not sure if I should be flattered you think the whole piece is about you, unfortunately, that's not the case. Trust me I have little or no intentions to research you lilu. But judging from your past messages, it's clear you have vowed to an immoral, criminal commitment, be it your country or your distorted views of the current crisis. You say I am accusing you? Well if you disagree with a single point I make in my article then how can I not accuse you of shortsightedness, ill information or like I said, denial. This is not about you. You are just an example lilu, a microcosm of miss directed masses who have missed a few imperative details about what the crisis is really about…so, you want to know what it's really about? Read my article again, you might have neglected (a term u guys know very well) some impeccable information. Because if you read it properly you just might start writing the same. Maybe u should do some research of your own and then tell me where I have gone wrong.

The piece is about truth, facts that people blinded by like you don't see. That’s not an accusation dear that’s an unfortunate circumstance. Sorry about your TV. Seeing your views on things I am certain you are getting objective, non-biased, truth telling net media sources!

Either case, you very well know there is no disputing it. My research, fortunately for the truth, is based on facts. And for your info, if you look at it again you will realize the piece was rebutting what you said earlier, I quote you "as for the UN resolution" hence part of my piece, as evident from the first paragraph, is one that refutes the UN resolution as they always prove to favor Israel and biased for everyone else. A tool Israel has used to its advantage every time, very much

For example:

1) The UN res. calls for the cessation of all "offensive" attacks by Israel, how convenient their forces are called the Israeli "Defense" Force. And how convenient they can breach the cease fire but hey …they were acting in guess what...Yes, "self defense"

2) Also calls for the immediate unconditional release for all prisoners Hezbollah has captured, but thousands of Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners who have been in Israeli donjons some for 20 years can wait a bit longer. Who cares??

3) Sheba Farms is still under Israeli occupation!

So what did Lebanon gain from this besides a break from the Israeli war machines that have killed 1000+ innocent civilians already? And who knows they are desperately waiting for a "legitimate excuse" to start round 2…

You said..." I was talking about Israeli fears being justified"!!!!!

Please go back and take a look at paragraphs 5, 6 and 7 from my piece! More specifically I will quote from my piece "The powers that be in Israel often use this as the justification for their massive armament and frequent military adventures. They portray Israel as a David amongst a Goliath; the Arab states. Insinuating the destruction of a small, weak Israel and Israel is incapable of defending itself. That is far from the reality. Israel is actually a massive power, not just in the Middle East but throughout the world…. Hezbollah, at best, poses a minimal threat to Israel by having the capability of launching rockets in Israel’s general direction. They certainly post no threat to the existence of state. Israel on the other hand, responds, allegedly, to the kidnapping of two of its soldiers by launching a full scale war against a defenseless Lebanese nation"


Israeli's lilu have nothing to fear, they are under well armed hands and quite capable evidently to "defend" themselves

Anyways, thanks, .it is an excellent piece and I admit it. Because it conveys the truth about what people tend to ignore, obscure and mask, and not realize the consequences of the buried reality.

This is not about those little petty arguments we have here and there in this chat room and others, this is about something bigger, something you should comprehend, absorb and grasp not necessarily agree with . I admit not all of us here are open minded, but I see to it that you do want dialogue, you do want discussion, productiveness and understanding and you to hope for peace…then why do you not yearn for your country to want the same? How come you do not see what your country is really doing? More importantly, how can we sit side by side in an open dialogue and discussion when your hands are dripping with Lebanese and Palestinian blood?

10:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

kan ni nabo chau chi bai merkova
hahaha...

10:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you dumb fuck merkova!

of course not! no way we arm muslims!! we should keep on arming israel with more fire power so they can continue with thier rampage of war crimes, ruthless attacks on innocent civilians and crimes against humanity! yeah, lets arm the number one terrorist state with fire power to do what it does best, murder inocent women and children on the pretense of yes, we have all heard it b4..."self defense"

10:25 AM  
Anonymous spread the love said...

I hear a lot of racist comments toward Arabs on this blog, I'm guessing from Israelis and Americans mainly. There seems to be a lot LESS outright biggotry comming from the other side. I haven't heard anyone say "dumb fucking jews" as was stated in this forum, for example. Seems to indicate the source of hatred isn't always "Islamic facists" but quite a few, if not more, Jewish facists as well.

11:40 AM  
Anonymous Craig said...

to anon 10:16am - and to your excellent fact based article. you waste my time and the space on this post. I am not going to even start to respond to the stupid fiction you choose to call facts.

and as to your 'personal' attack on Lilu I suggest you seek help mate maybe a shrink would help, go away and leave us alone you are not contributing to peace, you are encouraging hate and fear among both sides.

12:07 PM  
Anonymous Sean Piggott said...

The nature of some of the comments on this blog beggars belief.

As a Brit expat who moved to Beirut in January, currently bouncing around Dubai / Cairo until I can return, I cannot see how such hatred can gain anything other than more hatred and destruction.

This story on the BBC's News website, regarding usage of illegal arms, made my blood boil;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5263616.stm

12:18 PM  
Anonymous All 4 One & One 4 All said...

Anon 8:55

Thank you :-)

Peace indeed

12:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why don't YOU supply us with some "facts" Craig? Since you are so well informed. While you are at it, maybe getting off your 'high horse' might help, after all, if you fall.. it's gonna be a long way mate

12:32 PM  
Anonymous mtvessel said...

Anon 8:55

Well written and excellent analysis;
Appreciate

12:47 PM  
Anonymous All 4 One & One 4 All said...

Craig,

Hate and fear?
Just because someone posts something that does not abide by your point of view, your immediate reaction is to label them as haters?

Not contributing to peace?
Acutally anon 8:55 is contributing to peace by pointing out the truth on the ground! Peace only comes after understanding the truth.

We have one side of the story from Anon 8:55. Let's hear the other.

1:00 PM  
Anonymous mtvessel said...

You want to hear the other side of the story?
Anon 8:55 piece is self explanatory
We knew the root cause
UN Resolution spelt out clearly in favour of Israel and yet they are not satisfied.
Apparently, one can identify the double standard exhibited by world leaders in handling the crisis.

Now we could narrow down the credibility and integrity of those “so call world leaders”.
Leadership is about character, “Who You Are”, Not Your Position or Status”.
Differences if not handled properly and fairly, more often than not, they turn into conflicts.

Good Leadership Character

1. Does not abuse of his intelligence, supremacy and authority.
2. Respect his enemy and peoples around him regardless of race, religion, position
3. Respect his enemy and peoples around him regardless of race, religion, position and status.
4. Do not find fault with others
5. Believe and practice diplomacy
6. Will not take things that do not belong to him/her
7. Does not blame and berates others
8. Careful about the language he uses in public and media
9. Share his/her wealth with others especially to the needy.
10. Do not label others
11. Treat others the way they want to be treated
12. Recognize his/her emotion either in negative/positive mood.
13. Do not make decision based on his/her emotion.
14. Exhibit respects even he has nothing to gain from the relationship.
15. Exhibit flexibility and willingness to change
16. Tells the truth without fear
17. Accept feedback and ideas truly hears what others say
18. Show genuine concern for others, etc…


Leaders in the conflicts

G. Bush, (Dick Cheney in the back ground) Rice, Kofi Anan, Olmert, Perez, Saniora, Hezbollah, Ajmadnijed, Bashar Al-Assad and Blair.

Perhaps, we could asses them based of the 18 items above.
Those do not reach the mark of 50%, I am afraid they will have to leave their seat, otherwise, the killing of innocents will continue.

2:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

mtvessel ,sounds like empty vessel :-) you should really ge ta life, have you nothing to do or no one talk to except the computer??
how sweet. I suggest seeking help first, then maybe going into teaching?

3:02 PM  
Blogger Lilu said...

one last post for the road -

"Well if you disagree with a single point I make in my article then how can I not accuse you of shortsightedness, ill information or like I said, denial."

So basically, your idea of truth is the only truth. I see.
Congrats, you share the attitude of all the people heading this war. As we can see from the wonderful situation we are all in, this is surely the winning attitude to life. May I suggest some academic reading?
http://israeliwomen.blogspot.com/2006/08/truth-integral-perspective.html

"how can we sit side by side in an open dialogue and discussion when your hands are dripping with Lebanese and Palestinian blood?"
When you begin to get realistic and stop sensationalizing for the sake of sensalization and flaming the hatred. Thanks for the blatant de-humanization in that sentence, but you're wasting your energy on the wrong issue and the wrong people.
If you think I'M immoral and criminal, you're gonna have a much bigger problem with a lot of other people throughout the Middle East. Good luck with that. Surely it is people like you who will lead the people of the region to a peaceful, free life.

(this is for you too, all 4 one. You guys do realize you're embarrassing yourselves when you post something like "anon 8:55 is contributing to peace by pointing out the truth on the ground" and then try to pretend you're open minded by saying "Just because someone posts something that does not abide by your point of view, your immediate reaction is to label them as haters?".... you do realize the contradiction is TOO obvious, right?)

Just wondering - what are YOUR sources of information?

3:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Craig. You will not even start responding? Why not? I welcome it. But I will tell you why you won't. You won't because you don’t know how, because you DON’T know what is going on in our region. Your "made in USA" bombs massacring innocent women and children is coming from your own pocket you ignorant blind.

"You are encouraging hate and fear among both sides" if you really think you are contributing to peace then it is you who needs a shrink mate! Why don’t you try to write something useful instead of sitting back in your white trash trailer park spiting at others.

I am not personally attacking lilu! This is what is called a reply, a rebuttal.
You want me to leave but as I see others like what I have to say. Because it's constructive spells out the truth, and generates ineffective replies like lilu's.

Thanks for your support mtvessel and all 4one & one 4 all
now…

Dear Lilu,

Thanks for the academic reading, not surprised it's by an Israeli!

You have just proven what I said in my article. "Denial, a psychological defense mechanism, is an unconscious mental maneuver that cancels out or obscures painful reality. We hear no evil, see no evil, and hence feel no pain or confusion. We don’t have to confront or change things that don’t exist." This is the mentality that plagues Israel today."

You lilu are among them unfortunately but like everyone else, you still have a choice. There is only one truth; I doubt you can deny it. The problem is you can't see it. Your truth is twisted because you are missing essential information and facts. I can't force you to see it; I can just show it to you. If I "share all the attitude of people heading this war" (i.e.: Bush, Blair and Israel) we would not be having this argument but rather I would be supporting your miss informed views.

"If you think I'M immoral and criminal, you're gonna have a much bigger problem with a lot of other people throughout the Middle East"

Correct me if I am wrong but I think we do have lots of problems with people in the middle east namely Israel, Bush, Blair, because of people like you who cant see what these people are doing to you, your country and your neighbors. Again denial.

"people like you who will lead the people of the region to a peaceful, free life."

Hmmm, no, it's definitely people like you who accept everything they are fed without even looking at it. It's definitely people like you who seem to think they understand the reasons behind this war who will lead for peace. It's definitely people like you who desire and crave but more shockingly accept their countries brutality who will lead for pace. Yes, the result of peace is the unfortunate pave of war, massacres and destruction of human life and a nation all together. You know what? If that’s the case it's been 60 years. Why is peace not in sight? Only justice can bring about peace. For Lebanon and Palestine, justice is a world that is barely uttered in the grave, peace? It's a word that does not exist. No justice, No peace.

I believe it is of absolute importance for people to understand what's really going, the history behind this crisis, and the reasons for the crisis, to see and accept the truth, (explained in my article above, anon 8:55)


For you its sensitization for us here its realization. You don’t see it; you are use to. Its masked, desensitized, obscured from reality. We live it, breed it, see it, and experience it. (Which are my sources by the way). For you its dramatization of a peaceful loving Israel. Little do you know. And of course we have to hide it! God forbid we talk about Lebanese and Palestinian blood on Israeli hands…because it’s the truth! Get realistic?? This blatant de-humanization is not only proof that you do not understand the causes of this conflict but you conceal reality! IT IS REAL! Do you see what everyone else sees on TV, images on the internet?? Do you not see what your country has done to its neighbor? Of course not! Do you not see what your countries true intentions are? And you tell me I am sensitizing the issue?! The issue is beyond that now I am afraid. Am I really wasting my time with the wrong issues? Then what are the issues that have to be addressed? Am I really wasting my time with the wrong people? "Denial, a psychological defense mechanism, is an unconscious mental maneuver that cancels out or obscures painful reality. We hear no evil, see no evil, and hence feel no pain or confusion. We don’t have to confront or change things that don’t exist. This is the mentality that plagues Israel today." My article speaks for it self.

We can go about this forever lilu, the fact remains you won't listen to the truth, how can you crave peace when you cannot understand it? How can you sit in dialogue and understanding when you cannot even comprehend the evils facing your neighbors that originate form under your feet?

8:31 PM  
Blogger Lilu said...

Can you answer my last question please?

8:53 PM  
Blogger Lilu said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8:57 PM  
Blogger Lilu said...

oh and by the way - it was SENSATIONALIZATION, not SENSITIZATION.

And in case this wasn't clear, I would like to get a more elaborate answer on your sources than "We live it, breed it, see it, and experience it. (Which are my sources by the way). "
Where exactly do you live?

9:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Besides living it! I really don’t see how more elaborate it can get! I do get my sources from local news channels which if you do have the chance to look at you'll see the reality of the war. I don’t get my sources from fox news, CNN and the Israeli media which are the epitome of censorship.

I live in Lebanon... You should come and visit. See what your country has done to ours.

9:18 PM  
Blogger Lilu said...

I see, you live in Lebanon. Where in Lebanon?

9:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I live Beirut, and I live in Saida,
Where in Tell Aviv do u live? And what do you do in life?
Unfortunate I can't come and visit the damages done to the fences of your garden!

9:36 PM  
Blogger spunkIL said...

to Anonymos 7:11am,

The history of the arab world - once the us will eventually attack Iran and Syria with Israel, the days of Islam and arab world will be finally ending. the us will have all the oil it needs, HZ will be history, and the whole region will be vividly alive. not sure about beirut though... it just might take all the fire again for people like you who go own supporting HZ. seems like the beaten woman syndrome to me. you probably like it ha?

at least in the end the people, even in your world, will finally be free (not that you deserve it). maybe your children can visit mine in telaviv or in free jerusalem.

give back the kidnapped soldiers, maybe we can avoid all this.

p.s - burn baby burn.

9:38 PM  
Blogger Lilu said...

I live in central Tel Aviv, and I'm a student.

So you base your information on your own personal experiences and the local news reports. Everything you say, the absolute ultimate onlt truth, is so because you either saw it with your own eyes, your family/friends saw it with their own eyes and told you about it, or you saw it on your local news, am I correct?

9:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That’s part of it, but fortunately for me, there are those who keep track of history, I get my information form them, history does not lie, based on historical facts, Israel is the occupier we all know that, based on historical facts, Israel created Hezbollah cause it occupies their land, Palestinian lands and others. Based on historical facts anywhere you look, Israel is the aggressor provoked the resistance movement by Hezbollah , and Hamas to drive them out of land that does not belong to them….so please tell me where you are going with this? What's your point?

9:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the main causes, and roots of the conflict are crystal clear, for some at least. others just continue living in denial.

9:55 PM  
Blogger Lilu said...

oh I was just gonna ask when you got the chance to visit Israel and did you enjoy your visit, because you seem to know an awful lot of absolute ultimate only truth about what goes on over here. I'm also really sorry I missed you when you were apparently looking over my shoulder seeing and hearing where I get my information from, that you know for sure my sources are distorted, censored and unreliable.
You must have even gotten inside my head somehow, that you know so well what I think about everything!

You are, after all, the all powerful, all knowing, all seeing Anonymous. You see everything. Your news is more reliable than my news. Your history books are more reliable than my history books. Your family and friends are more reliable than mine. Your eyes are also more reliable than my eyes. Same for the ears.

Why, I wonder? I guess it's because I happen to hold a different opinion than yours, and maybe because I am Israeli and you are Lebanese. Must be a genetic thing.

"my truth is the only truth" - hmmm, that's where dictatorship comes from.

See ya in Beirut sometime, bye bye now.

10:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

let me make something clear..

I did not support Hezbollah, never did, until today. I never supported Hezbollah's actions without the consent of the Lebanese authorities. , but what I sure do support is for resisting Israeli occupation. Be it Hezbollah, or the Lebanese government, and definitely do not support acts of terrorism i.e.: US, UK, and Israeli actions. I do want peace but unfortunately the ingredients need to be present. Justice is one of them, and understanding the causes of this conflict from both sides. The way I see it is that you only have your views which don’t reflect at all what is really happening. I tell you , there are many Israeli who agree with what I am saying and I can name them for you. Give me one Palestinian, or Lebanese name that agrees with what your country is doing? That’s why I write, I write so it can pave the way for a comprehensive dialogue so to close the gaps of misunderstanding. When we talk about history there is only one eye, one ear, one true story and no one can deny that. So if you are refuting what history has to say, than yes, your books, and definitely your news are biased, and unreliable.

10:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Where do you read your history texts? In Saudi Arabian texts that talk of non Muslims as infidels? I think your history texts may be just a TAD screwed up.

10:30 PM  
Blogger Lilu said...

Oh but I never said I agreed with what my country was doing.

Honey, give it up. You contradict yourself too many times and too obviously in each post to be reliable.

10:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I realized you are hopeless, and so is your country if people like you are its followers. I said what I had to say in my article. What you have said so far is and endless struggle for a useless attempt for a rebuttal.

10:40 PM  
Blogger Lilu said...

none the farther, actually, just getting you off your high horse :)

it's been fun..

10:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting... i dont ride,

so where have u lived other than Tel Aviv?

10:55 PM  
Anonymous maroun said...

right on anon 10:40 PM. I tried to convince the Israelis to just give back the land so we could be done with Hez but they won't listen. They don't want to help us even though they know their stupid war didn't work. They always think they are right and some of them are true racists, with these comments like "dumb fuckin arabs". You know what Jews can be facists just like anybody else. Why don't you just give back OUR land and OUR prisoners, isn't that fair??? How could you ask for your prisoners and we not get ours?? And what's the big fuckin deal with Shebaa??? why don't you just give it back?

11:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maroun-Shebaa is a buffer btw Syria and Israel. They will not give it back because they want to keep a "buffer". Doesnt mean its belongs to them..

11:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you people are so so sad.

12:15 AM  
Anonymous Frank said...

Maruoun, you are pithy and to the point. I like you. I've r4ead a lot of posts recently from liberal Israelis like Lilu who insist Israel wants peace, and that many people there hate war, they don't really want to be in Lebanon, the West Bank, Gaza, Shebaa, etc etc, but look at what actually goes on:

1. Settlement building continues, the wall goes up and more palestinian land is taken

2. No MENTION from israel of any plan to deal with the palestinian refugees from 1948, yet any jew can exercise their right of return and come and settle in Israel

3. They keep coming back into Lebanon, Gaza etc whenever they want, and picking fights again (see the beginning of this thread)

But of course all this is justifiable because if they didn't keep coming in and picking fights, these places would become terrorist bases, and even liberal Israelis want HZ fighters killed or disarmed (usually the former, to judge by the tone of the responses). None of them seems to think there would be any mileage in trying to TALK to HZ or its elected representatives

Lilu asked a question right at the begining

"I really would like to know - imagine for a sec that there really was an arms shipment from Iran/Syria to HZ last night. What would you say about it?"

My opinion is that would be a breach of ceasefire and that IDF would be entitled to have a pop - it would certainly be more justifiable than blowing up UN observers.

Now I've answered that, maybe Lilu or someone else from the liberal Israeli camp could answer this:

would it be a breach of ceasefire for IDF to assasinate HZ leaders? And, would it be acceptable for liberal Israelis or Israel-defenders if they started doing this?

P.S. I'm not goign to answer any questions about where do I live; all I'll say is fortunately for me, not in a war zone.

12:56 AM  
Blogger Lilu said...

thanks for the intelligent reply, frank.

Yes, I think an assasination of HZ leaders would constitute as a cease fire breach. Would it be acceptable? that's a difficult one. When issues like that arise, the general public find themselves torn between their liberalism on the one hand and their fear on the other hand. We can see that from reactions to the assasinations the IDF conducts in the Palestinian territories. But I imagine in the case of HZ, it being in Lebanon, it will be unacceptable by the majority. That policy in Gaza eventually emerged as a negative one, especially since such operations usually resulted in vicious terrorist attacks in the homefront as retaliation (it's not that Israelis would miss a Hamas leader's existence). Liberal Israelis would most likely object to such assasinations, and I don't think Israel defenders would have much to say in favor (and I don't mean the ignorant blockheads who only know how to cheer to violence). Again, it's not like we'd really miss those leaders being around, but it is quite simply and very obviosuly, a dumb move (if anything, maybe they should be arrested, tried and judged like any other criminal - optimally by the govt. of Lebanon). If that is/would be the case, it would be yet another ignorant mistake to add to the government and the IDF leaders' list and one more thing they will need to answer to when the Israeli civilians come knocking (and they are beginning to march already). It would indeed be a shame they are abusing young men's lives and special op resources on such futile acts. But then again, Halutz has been famously quoted as saying the only thing he feels when his fighter jet launches a missile, is a slight thump. Sensitivity must be his middle name.

By the way - the three items you mentioned are three very negative government policies. They should be rectified. However, as I said, from all I knew and know of HZ, I do not think there is much point in talking to them, because HZ's real goals will ultimately always be beyond a viable sane reality (i.e. the destruction of the state of Israel). I don't trust them and I doubt I ever will. Talking to THEM would not achieve a real solution to the real problem.

1:35 AM  
Anonymous All 4 One & One 4 All said...

Lilu, you should try to find the time and visit some Palestinian towns. Have a stroll down Gaza or The West Bank. This may give you an idea of where some people are coming from. Talk to people while you're there and try to get someone who speaks Arabic to translate if you don't know Arabic well. This would be a live source for you.

I wish I had a chance to visit the occupied land and mingle with some Israelis and see what that's like and where they come from and just try to really understand points of view like yours and others.

At the same time I would love to have the chance to visit Jerusalem and check out the holy mosque there.

Hopefully one day I'll be able to do that :-) until then we pray for peace and truth

p.s. I don't believe I contradicted myself earlier. I do agree with Anon 8:55's denial quote on that one. It's only natural for you to be in denial though. It's usually a reaction to finding something out that is contradictory to some of your core beliefs. Sorry to tread there but it seems someone hit a nerve with the whole occupation thing :-o

2:27 AM  
Blogger Julie said...

Oh yeah - the American people remember, the American people (the ones with critical thinkin skills) knew when she said it, who would be the first to violate it.....guess - we didn't think Hizballah

4:06 AM  
Blogger Julie said...

Lilu
I think they wanted to deploy their army first, to make sure there were no breaches (by Israel), to protect your citizens and their citizens.

I think they want the international peacekeeping force there. They can disarm Hizballah after these things are in place but getting the army across the country is a huge logistical maneuver. I realize the Isrealis had no problem but that happens when its pre-planned.

They also had to inventory I'm sure since the Isarelis were kind enough to bomb the barracks of the army they wanted to preserve. And they did issue the proclamation that anyone who fires a rocket at Israel will be guilty of treason and tried as such. I think it's pretty clear where Lebanon stands on the issue of weapons. Isarel's position is a little murky.

And you didn't answer my question, how did Iran and Syria get the stuff over the border? They search Iran's plabes in Turkey, the bridges are bombed out to Syria....how? Where did this intelligence come from? You never hear that part. What was the intelligence? You expect everyone to believe, just because Isarel says there were weapons, that there were. Did they find any? You on't hear that either, but yo do hear it was near the village of a Hizballah leader, and we did hear that they are going to continue to try to get Hizballah's leadership, so let's see....logically, what would I believe.....

4:19 AM  
Blogger Julie said...

Turkey groundin the Iranian planes.

Israel told Turkey tey had intelligence there were weapons on board two Iranian planes in Turkey's airspace. The planes landed in Turkey, were searched, none were found. That was August 8. It appeared in U.S. papers today. The story they tell is "governemnt sources" said that the U.S. told Turkey about the weapons, etc.....the U.S. had nothing to do with it. I saw it in the Chicago Sun Times.

unbiased history of Palestine

5:45 AM  
Blogger Julie said...

sorry - it happened August 18th - Turkey

5:52 AM  
Blogger clare said...

It seems to me that Hezbollah must be disarmed and there is no real plan to do this. I can understand why Israel would want to prevent arms from reaching HZ even if it meant they would be perceived as being in violation of the cease fire. Hezbollah started the entire thing and caused much misery to everyone, however the mistake Israel made was in all the destruction and killing of innocent civilians. Their response was seen as being harsh and cruel. Whatever sympathy and goodwill they acquired from the kidnapping of the two soldiers was forever lost I am afraid. The U.S. should be more neutral and fair in dealing with the underlying issues that have caused all the hostility but we will never abandon Israel. The people here in the heartland of America can see what radicals have done here, suicide bombings everywhere and the threats to national security, and they see terrorists behind all the problems we face.I believe that the plight of ordinary people caught in the middle has been lost somewhere in the whole scenario. What a shame for all concerned.

5:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

lilu, ..

you said "Oh but I never said I agreed with what my country was doing. "

If you disagree with what anon 8:55 has to say then you definitely agree with what your country is doing. babe, thats a contradiction for you right there!

and aslo "You contradict yourself too many times" why dont you go back and read thru what you posted!

7:25 AM  
Blogger Lilu said...

all 4 one, you were in contradiction because you're not willing to accept my opinion as viable, and you're not willing to accept the possibility that maybe I know something you don't know. You can't present yourself as open minded if you call the views of someone else who comes from a different place than you, and has a different perspective than you, as denial, false, etc. You, for example, are in denial about being close minded. You see, I don't presume to know everything. I'm just a student from Tel Aviv, not god. I only know what I know, which is some things, and there's lot more I don't know. I'm aware of that and I accept that. This is why I try to be in contact with as many people as I can, because they can give me perspectives of places I haven't been to and maybe never will. Pay attention - I am not talking about VIEWS, which are a personal subjective thing, I am talking about descriptions of a place, a day, a life. If the sources are trustworthy, I will base my own views on what they tell me (i.e. HZ - not trustworthy. RS - trustworthy).
I would NEVER say that I know the ultimate only truth. This is a wholly irrational and unrealistic thing to say. I have seen enough of this world and this life to know better. I base my opinions one what I see, I try to have as much objective information before I judge anyone, but I always keep in mind that there could always be something out there that will prove I am totally wrong. You can't live your life around that, but you should always keep it in the back of your mind and be aware the possibility exists - THIS is an open mind. Respecting other people's opinions and accepting the option that what they say may be true even if it is different than what you believe. The only way you could ever legitimately claim you know better than another is if you were both physically at the same place at the same time looking at the same thing, and the other person is describing something completely different - and even then I would take what they say into consideration.

7:25, allow me to introduce to you the idea of a spectrum. Many many thoughts and opinions exist out there in the world, and all are different and based on different sources, and none are better than the other. 8:55 stands on one extreme side of the opinion spectrum. My government apparently stands on the other side. In between? plenty options to have a third opinion - not one that agrees with 8:55, nor one that agrees with my government. You see, this is called reality - the world is not in black and white.

Julie, as I said, I have no idea how Iran/Syria would get things across the border. Where is the intelligence? if there is intelligence, it is classified. Certain intelligence sources are very sensitive. Look, these are things I can tell you for sure and you can choose to trust me or not, this is things I know from my own service in the IDF. The issue of information and intelligence is very complex and delicate, and I really can't get into it much more than that. Some intelligence gets out, some will always remain classified - this is also the problem with reliablity of sources, there is false information out there too. This is why I say I can't know what really happened over there - because I wasn't there. Neither were you. So no one can say for sure. What seems logical is not at all neccesarily true. Iran and Syria have their own skills at deception and covert operations, and they do have more possibilities than the obvious stuff and what is public information, so I am willing to bet they still have their own secret ways to continue transferring weapons to HZ. It is a viable option, and it is so even if nothing has been publicized about the finding of weapons, because we just can't know everything that is really going on.
This is the problem with basing your views on this type of public information - it is too vague. Newspapers report all sorts of information, and people base their views on it - but the information may very well be false, and it often actually is.

1:57 PM  
Blogger Sam said...

Leb is doomed, sad to say!

10:24 PM  
Blogger Frank said...

Hi lilu,

Thanks for answering both parts of my question. Now I have a few more.....

You say "However, as I said, from all I knew and know of HZ, I do not think there is much point in talking to them, because HZ's real goals will ultimately always be beyond a viable sane reality (i.e. the destruction of the state of Israel). I don't trust them and I doubt I ever will. Talking to THEM would not achieve a real solution to the real problem."

Didn't Israel talk to the PLO whilst it still officially wanted the destruction of the Israeli state? And didn't this lead to the PLO removing this goal from its manifesto or constitution?

At the risk of sounding uncharitable, I might add that the PLO didn't seem to get much in return. After Rabin was assassinated they were more or less dumped at the negotiating table and the settlement building land grab just carried on as before. I think that if Israel were to defang HZ, either by assassination of its leaders or disarmament, and NOT make any changes to the government policies you rightly describe as very negative, then a more implacable enemy would simply take HZ's place.

Another quick question: which do you prefer, PLO or Hamas? (cos I think you got Hamas as a result of Israel's policies to PLO and Lebanon)}

P.S. Thanks for being prepared to take on all Israel's critics at once, it must seem like there is a big crowd of us!

12:01 AM  
Blogger Lilu said...

PLO was/is in a different position and status than HZ. I see HZ to now be an arm, albeit a long one, of Iran (and Syria). These are very strong backs which allows for a great deal of confidence. Also, HZ is guided by religious spirit, which is a very strong motivator and one which is very difficult to counter. PLO enjoyed much less regional support, was much less popular with leaderships around the world, and was/is mostly secular. PLO also showed to be weaker - it took a real beating throughout the years (the Israelis, the Jordanians, other Palestinian factions), but HZ so far proves itself quite resiliant - this boosts their confidence, as opposed to PLO which was forced to get more realistic about their intentions. The PLO was also much more factioned and disorganised as a group, than the solid and unified Shi'ite HZ. This probably placed it in a much wider and more flexible view of things than HZ, and the option for compromise was much more evident and viable. I imagine the Israeli politicians of the time recognised this as time went on, and recognised the possibility of a partner. HZ actions show quite the opposite to me, they seem to me to be hell bent against a real compromise (a diplomatic, long term solution compromise). Israel could try talking to HZ but I don't imagine it would amount to the change of direction the PLO took, not a real one. If Iran and Syria disconnected from HZ, I could see a window of opportunity there, but I doubt this would happen, especially now.

I fully agree that Rabin was probably the last reasonable leader Israel has had. The only person in view right now, to me, is Livni - she sounds the most realistic. What happened after Rabin's assasination was a shame to this country, but apparently a true leader appears maybe once a generation. I agree with what you're saying about Israeli government policies - as I said before, everyone will have to make compromises on the way to real peace. I also agree Israeli assasinations of HZ or disarming wont work in stopping HZ clones popping up. Frankly I don't even think it's up to Israel to defang HZ, it shouldn't be our job. Our job is to defend ourselves. It is up to Lebanon to defang HZ, who is a part of it. Maybe they are the only ones who would be succesful in doing so permanently. Unfortunately, at the current moment, the Lebanese govt. is not showing very hopeful signs its in that direction, so for the meantime, as part of our job to defend ourselves we should try to stop the re-arming of HZ (and arming in general) - but only as a temporary and very current fix and with as little violence as possible.

Which do I prefer? well if I must take a pick, I prefer PLO - Abu Mazen. Hamas are as radical and set in there ways as HZ, it seems. Abu Mazen seems much more of a person you can talk with. Hamas, no. As for Hamas' rise to power in the Pal. Territories (this is what you were refering to I imagine? the increase in their support?), this in fact isn't wholly about Israeli treatment of the Palestinians. It also had alot to do with internal problems, the PLO government itself (Arafat and co.), which was very corrupt and contributed to the continuation of Palestinian suffering and poverty. It is the latter, the disappointment from the government the Palestinian people felt when their situation wasn't improving, that made them seek other solutions in the form of different leadership. Combine that with the PLO's failure to do anything about the deteriorating treatment from Israel in the ordinary Palestinian's eyes (I doubt they gave much thought to the situation with Lebanon), and you get the growth of support to Hamas which cleverly won people's hearts with social aid (much like HZ is doing).
By the way, Hamas rise to power is widely regarded as a big miss by the IDF. The IDF's high ranks (probably in Intelligence) simply dismissed it as a real possible outcome, and arrogantly concluded there is no way Hamas would gain so much support. I imagine the intelligence was out there in the field but the top ranks simply failed to make the right conclusions (as might be the case with HZ and Lebanon right now).

P.S. you're welcome :)

3:14 AM  
Blogger Frank said...

Lilu, I hope you are right about Livni. I did used to think that about Rabin but I'm not so sure now whether Oslo would have got anywhere.

You say that HZ is stronger than PLO - all the more reason to fight them with words as well as with bombs if that is the case. I agree that defanging is ultimately up to Lebanon, but if only Israel had worked with fledgling Leb govt instead of doing what it did.

As for Hamas, I thought you would prefer PLO, but isnt it true that Israel initially backed Hamas in order to try and weaken PLO further ........?

"However, various sources, among them United Press International [38], Le Canard enchaîné, Bill Baar and L'Humanité[39] have highlighted that Hamas' early growth - before its official founding and the creation of the military branch - had been supported by the Mossad as a "counterbalance to the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)".

10:11 AM  
Blogger Lilu said...

I think if we still had Rabin the Middle East would look very different today. I think it's a question of a leader. Oslo was a fledgling agreement, the assasination of the one person who had the gift of reason as well as the gift of leadership probably contributed most to its failure. I think Rabin would have managed to get it to hold up.
Livni is beginning to shows signs of both that gift of reason and the potential to lead - and she's getting a lot of support. Politicians here have a tendency to disappoint me very quickly so we'll have to see about her, but I hope she takes advantage of the opportunity if and when Olmert is given the boot.

As for Mossad backing Hamas - it's a possibility, Mossad has a tendency to do alot of strange and secret and sometimes contradictory things. I don't really know for sure though, your guess is as good as mine. Mossad isn't perfect - they may be good as hitmen but they also tend to make alot of mistakes with making the right conclusions. There's so much covert stuff going on, it is possible Mossad even work with HZ sometimes, and I wont even rule out an option that there were talks with the Leb govt. no one knew about.
My dad, who's much more into all the secret operation and conspiracies stuff, thinks that behind the scenes, the Leb govt. is actually supportive of Olmert's actions, as is the rest of the world - he thinks they're all sitting by waiting for us to 'finish HZ for them'. But my dad sometimes exaggerates :)

1:36 PM  

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